<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META name=GENERATOR content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.19412">
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear Crispin</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG>As I see it, there are TWO issues
here:Testing</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG>1: Testing of stoves, i.e., reporting on
performance observed.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG>2: Regulation, Standards, Laws,
etc.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG>I agree fully with you that Turn Down of stoves is
necessary to accomplish various cooking tasks. This can be done in many ways,
with various advantages and disadvantages relating to adequacy, speed, cost, and
effect on fuel burning efficiency.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG>Accordingly, I would suggest the
following:</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG>1: From a TESTING standpoint, it does not matter
what the fuel efficiency is, what the stove costs, what TDR can be attained,
what its emissions are, etc, The ONLY thing important in TESTING is accurate and
repeatable determination of the properties and capabilities of a stove, and
reporting of the results in a bland, neutral, and honest
manner.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG>2: Between "Testing and "Regulations or Standards,
is market Analysis, (probable) redesign and retesting, then another trip to
"The Market" to see if the "Mark 2 version" is acceptable, If not, then repeat.
If acceptable, then go to the Regulators, Standards People,
etc.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG>3: The Regulators and Standards Folk need to know
what is "achievable in practise" by a reasonable number of Manufacturers... they
have to consult Test Data.... AND they have to know that the stoves meet "
Requirements for Various Markets", in terms of purchase cost, fuel efficiency,
cooking performance requirements, Health Concerns, and safety
concerns.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG>I know that you know all these things, but
unfortunately, some on the Stoves list are confusing "Neutral Testing to report
on performance of the stove submitted for testing" with an opportunity to tilt
the scales and favour an external agenda.. If the Stove Testing process is not
set up to present the results in a fair and professional manner, then the Second
Step of developing Regulations and Standards is doomed to distortion, unfairness
and waste of money.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial>It is good to see that you are "thinking ahead to
what is important to the Customer." In this way, you san structure the Testing
and reporting Protocols that will enable Regulators and developers of Standards
to make regulations and Standards that are fair, and which give the Customer
what he wants. Actually, they go a bit further... sensible Regulations and Laws
give the Customer what he needs.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial>You bring up two very good issues... the need for
a TDR and the need for Stove Categories. Concerning TDR... if a TDR of 4 seems
reasonable to you, then simply set up the Test Procedure to determine stove
performance when operated at a TDR of 2,4,and 6. This will cost extra, but then
if the Customer demands the feature, then the Manufacturer can decide if he
wants to include a TDR Test set when he submits the stove for testing. The
Customer can then review Test Results, and decide what stove he wants to buy.
When the regulators see what the market wants, they can then Regulate the market
accordingly.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial>Concerning Categories of stoves... I think this is
mandatory. Stoves with different fuels, and different purposes will have very
results. Lumping all stoves together will be very confusing to the Stove
Customer.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial>Best wishes,</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial>Kevin</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>----- Original Message ----- </FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com"><FONT
face=Arial>crispinpigott@gmail.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>To: "Stoves" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"><FONT
face=Arial>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</FONT></A><FONT
face=Arial>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Sent: Friday, May 03, 2013 6:11 PM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Subject: Re: [Stoves] Stove Definition -
controllability</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT face=Arial>> Dear Frank<BR>>
<BR>> I am not in any position to say how people turn down their fires. By
that I mean this is a performance based approach, not a prescription in any way.
There are good reasons why people use an open fire. One is that the fire is very
controllable. <BR>> <BR>> I will address the efficiency determination
separately. One thing at a time, though I agree with your HHV number the pure
carbon. I think the H2 number you gave is the LHV (117 MJ/kg). <BR>> <BR>>
So I am proposing that we segregate cooking appliances into functional
categories with BASIC characterisations for each. They are of course driven by
the customers and what they think when they buy something. <BR>> <BR>> A
BBQ (barbie, braai) is a category of appliance that is largely use for roasting
and grilling. It usually has very little power control with the food being
raised or lowered, covered or not as a means of control. <BR>> <BR>> A
kettle is a water heater that shuts off automatically if it is electrical. Is
that available for LPG or wood pellets or ethanol? Why not? Maybe no one asked.
<BR>> <BR>> Many people boil a small quantity if water, up to perhaps 2
litres. Cecil has identified this as a 'class' of cooking activity. Heating tea
in the evening or morning is common. Sometimes people use LPG for this even if
they rarely use it for anything else. This a task highly suited of a small stove
that requires no attention and has zero controllability save being turned on and
off. <BR>> <BR>> Translate that into larger units for heating 5 or 10 or
20 litres of water at a time. None of these require turn down. But none of them
are 'cooking stoves'. <BR>> <BR>> The requirement, literally, for cooking
is a controllable heat source. So the question is on the floor: how much control
is enough to be a minimum?<BR>> <BR>> Regards<BR>> Crispin<BR>> From
BB9900<BR>> <BR>> -----Original Message-----<BR>> From: "Frank Shields"
<</FONT><A href="mailto:frank@compostlab.com"><FONT
face=Arial>frank@compostlab.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial>><BR>> Sender:
"Stoves" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org"><FONT
face=Arial>stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</FONT></A><FONT
face=Arial>><BR>> Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 11:02:49 <BR>> To: 'Discussion
of biomass cooking stoves'<</FONT><A
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"><FONT
face=Arial>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</FONT></A><FONT
face=Arial>><BR>> Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<BR>>
<</FONT><A href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"><FONT
face=Arial>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</FONT></A><FONT
face=Arial>><BR>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Stove Definition -
controllability<BR>> <BR>>
_______________________________________________<BR>> Stoves mailing
list<BR>> <BR>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<BR>> </FONT><A href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"><FONT
face=Arial>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial>>
<BR>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<BR>>
</FONT><A
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org"><FONT
face=Arial>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</FONT></A><BR><FONT
face=Arial>> <BR>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and
Information see our web site:<BR>> </FONT><A
href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/"><FONT
face=Arial>http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial>>
<BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
_______________________________________________________<BR>> Unlimited Disk,
Data Transfer, PHP/MySQL Domain
Hosting<BR>>
</FONT><A href="http://www.doteasy.com"><FONT
face=Arial>http://www.doteasy.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial> <BR>>
_______________________________________________<BR>> Stoves mailing
list<BR>> <BR>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<BR>> </FONT><A href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"><FONT
face=Arial>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial>>
<BR>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<BR>>
</FONT><A
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org"><FONT
face=Arial>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</FONT></A><BR><FONT
face=Arial>> <BR>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and
Information see our web site:<BR>> </FONT><A
href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/"><FONT
face=Arial>http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</FONT></A><BR><FONT
face=Arial>></FONT></BODY></HTML>