<html><head></head><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div>Crispin etal</div><div><br></div><div> 1. I am disappointed we have no section in 4.2.2 to look at. Can anyone supply it? I have not the time today.<br><br> 2. I am no expert in this topic, but it seems to me that it makes no difference whether the reporting says 4.9 or 5.0. The important issue was - can others repeat the testing on the same stove and get the "same" reported efficiency. This is an efficiency test to compare stoves. I care only that both numbers 4.9 and 5.0 are reported and the energies involved are done correctly. I care especially that energy in char is not treated as the same sort of loss as what slipped past the pot which started with 5 liters.</div><div><br></div><div> 3. You ask at the end: <span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); ">"Is this cognitive dissonance or conceptual error?"</span></div><div><br></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); "> I say this is neither. The question is, did the test you described give a reasonably close approximation of heat transfer that was useful in separating stoves into four groupings. If the answer was 44%, have I a right to demand another test, since I thought it was going to be 46%? Eventually there could be millions of dollars riding on this sort of 2% difference. (45% is the dividing line between groups 3 and 4).</span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);"><br></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);"> I suggest we have better things to than debate this sort of topic. An ISO process is underway. We can point out big errors, but your example of 4.9 vs 5.0 doesn't rise to that level for me. Put that in energy efficiency terms that matter, and we should all want to continue. I repeat, though, that approach 4.2.2 is where the big league action (baseball jargon)</span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);">now is. Ron<br></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); "><blockquote type="cite"><div><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; "><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0mm; margin-right: 0mm; margin-left: 0mm; margin-bottom: 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#1f497d"><br></font></p></div></div></div></blockquote></span><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)"><style><!--
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--><div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Dear Ron<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D">>></span></b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> <i>"</i></span><i><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Perhaps this is the time, <b><u>before</u></b> there is anything approaching an ISO standard, to discuss the foundational concepts upon which any claims to performance improvement might lie."<br><br></span></i><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#1F497D">>2</span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">. I went to all the standards sessions at the </span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">GACC Forum that I could. I came away with the impression that the standards are very near set - mainly because a large amount of work and time has gone into their development. </span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">If the ISO standard (which will be agreed by a vote among nations) is to be accepted (not just ‘passed’) it has to be relevant. The key missing ingredients so far are a) the discussion of what is done during a test has not been extended to the concepts that under lie it, - we have just been rehashing the old WBT pioneered 25 years ago. And b) it has not been externally reviewed by a competent authority. Obviously both these issues have been brought to the attention of the relevant parties.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">The world of ISO standards is not like the garage mechanic stove inventers writing their own <i>ad hoc</i> tests of what they think should happen or be looked at. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Do in a large amount of work does not always overcome fundamental obstacles.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">></span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> 3. How about giving us <b><u>ONE</u></b> paragraph in 4.2.2 to look at - and with especially new language on how you would change that paragraph? Even if that has to be a year or two from now.</span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">How is this:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I give you 5 litres of water in a pot and ask you to bring it to a boil.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">You put it in a fire and bring it to what we agree is ‘a boil’ by which time 100 cc has evaporated.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I ask you how many litres of water you have just boiled.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">What is your answer?</span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#1F497D">That is an example of a conceptual difference. The WBT says you boiled 4.9. An engineering will say you boiled 5.0. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#1F497D">Is this cognitive dissonance or conceptual error?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#1F497D">Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#1F497D">Crispin<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>Stoves mailing list</span><br><span></span><br><span>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address</span><br><span><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page</span><br><span><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:</span><br><span><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a></span><br><span></span><br></div></blockquote></body></html>