<html><head><style type='text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><div style='font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'>List:<br><br>I'd be interested in our list deniers' opinions on these two short videos<br><br> a. 2 minutes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_0JZRIHFtk<br><br> b. 30 seconds http://neven1.typepad.com/blog/2013/04/ice-cube-volume-video.html<br><br>(There are plenty more like this. Any we should look at from the deniers' side?)<br><br>To List master Andrew H - I am sorry to disagree. I think there is considerable relevance between improved stoves and climate.- especally when the deners promote a fossil alternative on this biomass list.<br><br>Ron<br><br><hr id="zwchr"><b>From: </b>"Jonathan P Gill" <jg45@icloud.com><br><b>To: </b>"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><br><b>Sent: </b>Saturday, May 11, 2013 9:01:30 AM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] In praise of kerosene<br><br>Kevin,<div><br></div><div>It was indeed bad word smithing to have started with the term "Global Warming". "Global Climate Disruption" is much more accurate, and, I would expect, inevitable at this late stage. The models are only imperfect, not wrong. Models can only be as good as the imperfections of our human knowledge, which can never be perfect, so forget that argument. I doubt very much that you claim perfect knowledge, so what are the imperfections in your knowledge preventing you from seeing? As my friend Errol Morris likes to say "believing is seeing".<br><div><br></div><div><div>You are basically willfully reading the science incorrectly. The models are imperfect but not "wrong" per se. If you read the items I forwarded to the list, you might get a better understanding of the heat going into the ocean, that, while imperfectly understood, is not a good thing.</div><div><br></div><div>If you wait for the "perfect model" then your grandchildren will surely have very unkind words to say about you. Even the British Royals have recently had some strong words to say about climate change deniers such as you appear to be. This will be just as true for the many "stovers" who are also climate change deniers.</div><div><br></div><div>At some deep meta level, the problem for many is that Climate Disruption is the ultimate nail in the coffin of unearned white male privilege. Which may also help explain why it is white males in the USA who go on gun violence sprees, not others. IE, this is about a whole lot more than CO2 in the atmosphere. It is about clinging a way of life with a fatal internal contradiction: "modern" industrialism powered by fossil carbon. As Hansen says, this is a truly Faustian bargain.</div><div><br></div><div>Cling if you must. I do not envy you trying to explain this to your grandchildren.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div><br></div><div>Jock</div><div><br></div><div><div><div>On May 11, 2013, at 10:49 AM, Kevin <<a href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net" target="_blank">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote><div dir="auto" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div><font face="Arial">Dear Jock</font></div><div><font face="Arial"></font> </div><div><font face="Arial">The IPCC told us that "Global Warming" was the problem. They predicted how much the air temperature would rise, and they were wrong. Their models were wrong. Now they are telling us about the dangers of "Climate Change", and not global warming. The fundamental problem is that their models have been shown to be faulty.</font></div><div><font face="Arial"></font> </div><div><font face="Arial">"Consensus" is a "Political Process to get agreement." "Consensus Science" is thus "Political Science", and not "Real Science."</font></div><div><font face="Arial"></font> </div><div><font face="Arial">I like this quote from the referenced article:</font></div><div><font face="Arial">" <font face="Times New Roman">“The climate may be heating up less in response to greenhouse-gas emissions than was once thought,” read </font><a href="http://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/21574461-climate-may-be-heating-up-less-response-greenhouse-gas-emissions" target="_blank"><font face="Times New Roman">the article’s tagline</font></a><font face="Times New Roman">. “But that does not mean the problem is going away.”</font><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>"</font></div><div><font face="Arial"></font> </div><div><font face="Arial"># With their models having been proved to be faulty, how do they know there is a problem?</font></div><div><font face="Arial"></font> </div><div><font face="Arial">Kevin</font></div><blockquote style="border-left-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 5px; padding-right: 0px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px; "><div style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: arial; ">----- Original Message -----</div><div style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: arial; background-color: rgb(228, 228, 228); "><b>From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="jg45@icloud.com" href="mailto:jg45@icloud.com" target="_blank">Jock Gill</a></div><div style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: arial; "><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Discussion of biomass cooking stoves</a></div><div style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: arial; "><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Saturday, May 11, 2013 9:09 AM</div><div style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: arial; "><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Stoves] In praise of kerosene</div><div><br></div><div>Steve,</div><div><br></div><div>Actually you have that wrong. The oceans are warming up significantly, a very bad thing. It true that land temperatures have not warmed as much as was expected. However this only buys a few extra years before climate disruption becomes severe.</div><div><br></div><div>All thesis well explained here: <a href="http://nyti.ms/15sfbrd" target="_blank">http://nyti.ms/15sfbrd</a></div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div><br></div><div>Jock</div><div><br><div>Jock Gill</div><div>P.O. Box 3</div><div>Peacham, VT 05862</div><div><br></div><div>Cell: (617) 449-8111</div><div><br></div><div><span>:> Extract CO2 from the atmosphere! <:</span></div><div><br></div>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On May 11, 2013, at 7:56 AM, Steve Taylor <<a href="mailto:steve@thetaylorfamily.org.uk" target="_blank">steve@thetaylorfamily.org.uk</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote><div dir="ltr">Do you imagine that the higher and higher the concentration, the worse it gets ? Even the IPCC acknowledges that isn't the case. 15 years of rapidly rising CO2 concentrations, and zero change in global temperature, acknowledged by many, including the UK Met Office.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 11 May 2013 12:43, Paul Olivier<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:paul.olivier@esrla.com" target="_blank">paul.olivier@esrla.com</a>></span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; "><div dir="ltr">Are you serious?<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div><div class="h5">On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 6:04 PM, Steve Taylor<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:steve@thetaylorfamily.org.uk" target="_blank">steve@thetaylorfamily.org.uk</a>></span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<br></div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; "><div><div class="h5"><div dir="ltr"><br><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; "><div dir="ltr"><div>Please read this - just in from the New York Times:<br><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/11/science/earth/carbon-dioxide-level-passes-long-feared-milestone.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20130511&_r=0" target="_blank">http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/11/science/earth/carbon-dioxide-level-passes-long-feared-milestone.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20130511&_r=0</a><br></div><br></div><br></blockquote></div><div>Or. 0.04%<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><br></div><div>Since we are all in favour of burning bio-mass, shouldn't we prefer a higher level of CO2, which would significantly promote plant growth, and encourage the growth of the stuff we want to burn ?<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><br></div><div><br></div></div></div></div><br></div></div><div class="im">_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br><br><br></div></blockquote></div><div class="im"><br><br clear="all"><br>--<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>Paul A. Olivier PhD<br>26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong<br>Dalat<br>Vietnam<br><br>Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)<br>Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)<br>Skype address: Xpolivier<br><a href="http://www.esrla.com/" target="_blank">http://www.esrla.com/</a></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br><br><br></blockquote></div><br></div></blockquote><blockquote><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>Stoves mailing list</span><br><span></span><br><span>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address</span><br><span><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page</span><br><span><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:</span><br><span><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a></span><br><span></span><br></blockquote><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><hr><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br><br></blockquote>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org<br><br>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/<br><br></div></body></html>