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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear Jock</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jg45@icloud.com href="mailto:jg45@icloud.com">Jonathan P Gill</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=jg45@icloud.com
href="mailto:jg45@icloud.com">Jonathan P Gill</A> ; <A
title=kchisholm@ca.inter.net href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">Kevin</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, May 11, 2013 12:01
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] In praise of
kerosene</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Kevin,
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>It was indeed bad word smithing to have started with the term "Global
Warming". "Global Climate Disruption" is much more accurate, </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG># It is far worse than mere
"wordsmithing." The IPCC is guilty of ignorance and
misdirection. Firstly, consider the concept of GW, as follows: If the Northern
hemisphere warmed by 10 C and the southern Hemisphere cooled by 10 C, there
would be absolutely no "Global Warming." However, the consequences to climate
and daily weather would be absolutely disastrous. Choosing the concept of
"Global Warming" was fatally flawed. Secondly, the IPPC was structured to
study ONLY anthropogenic effects. Naturally, within this context, they can
find that Man's Activities are the largest contributor to GW and Climate
Change, because they are not considering the contributions from Nature!
</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>and, I would expect, inevitable at this late stage. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG># OK.... if we assume they are inevatible, then
we should be diverting our efforts to a coping strategy, rather than a
preventive strategy. This would be a totally different strategy from that
being proposed by the IPCC.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> The models are only imperfect, not wrong. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG># I would suggest that they are fatally flawed,
as a consequence of ignoring the influence of Mother Nature on GW and
CC.</STRONG> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> Models can only be as good as the imperfections of our human
knowledge, which can never be perfect, so forget that argument. I doubt
very much that you claim perfect knowledge, so what are the imperfections in
your knowledge preventing you from seeing?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG># The IPCC Models are fatally flawed because
they ignore "The Elephant in the Room. " "Mother Nature" is the "elephant in
the GW/CC Room" and they have chosen to ignore Her. That is not "lack of
knowledge", or "imperfection in knowledge". That is a fatal philosophical
flaw.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> As my friend Errol Morris likes to say "believing is
seeing".</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG># I see "climate change" locally. I believe in
climate change here. I see the US Drought Monitor </STRONG><A
href="http://droughtmonitor.unl.edu/"><STRONG>http://droughtmonitor.unl.edu/</STRONG></A><STRONG> and
believe there is climate change and GW happening elsewhere. However, I am a
"dis-believer" and a "Denier" that "Man alone is responsible for CC and GW.
Give Mother Nature some credit!! :-)</STRONG></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>You are basically willfully reading the science incorrectly. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG># What "Science"??? The IPCC gives "True
Science" a bad name. </STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> The models are imperfect but not "wrong" per se.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG># They are wrong per se, in that they ignore
Mother nature and ASSUME that Anthropogenic Activity is the major driver.
</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> If you read the items I forwarded to the list, you might get
a better understanding of the heat going into the ocean, that, while
imperfectly understood, is not a good thing.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial># I don't know if it is "a bad thing" or a "good
thing." I do agree that it will be "a different thing."
</FONT><BR></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV>If you wait for the "perfect model" then your grandchildren will surely
have very unkind words to say about you. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG># The present " imperfect model" is very
imperfect, in that it chooses to ignore the inputs of Mother Nature. Money and
effort directed at preventing Climate Change will thus be mis-directed. Our
Grand Children will certainly not thank us for mis-directing money and effort
into solving the wrong problems. If anything, they will laugh at us for
ignoring Mother Nature's Influence.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> Even the British Royals have recently had some strong words to say
about climate change deniers such as you appear to be. This will be just
as true for the many "stovers" who are also climate change deniers.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG># You pick a poor example for an Authority on
Climate Change.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>At some deep meta level, the problem for many is that Climate Disruption
is the ultimate nail in the coffin of unearned white male privilege.
Which may also help explain why it is white males in the USA who go on
gun violence sprees, not others. IE, this is about a whole lot more than
CO2 in the atmosphere. It is about clinging a way of life with a fatal
internal contradiction: "modern" industrialism powered by fossil carbon.
As Hansen says, this is a truly Faustian bargain.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial># Atmospheric CO2 is now at its highest recent
levels and yet reported GW Temperatures are not rising. Now, any sensible
person would realize that ocean water absorbs heat. Do you know if the IPCC
includes ocean warming in their Global Temperature indicator, or was it
technically flawed by measuring only Global Air
temperatures?</FONT><BR></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV>Cling if you must. I do not envy you trying to explain this to your
grandchildren.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG># You are giving the IPCC far more credit than
is scientifically justifiable by their flawed mandate.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG># I would kindly ask that this discussion be
transferred to the biochar-policy list, where "Climate Change Threads" are
considered to be acceptable. Climate Change Discussions on teh Stoves List is
a distraction from the stated purpose of the stoves List. I have taken the
liberty of sending a copy of this posting
to
<FONT size=3><A
href="mailto:biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com">biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com</A> and
will respond, if necessary, only on that list.</FONT></STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG>Best wishes,</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><STRONG>Kevin</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Regards,</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Jock</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>On May 11, 2013, at 10:49 AM, Kevin <<A
href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</A>>
wrote:</DIV><BR class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV
style="WIDOWS: 2; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; FONT: medium Arial; WHITE-SPACE: normal; ORPHANS: 2; LETTER-SPACING: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"
dir=auto bgcolor="#ffffff">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear Jock</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>The IPCC told us that "Global Warming" was the
problem. They predicted how much the air temperature would rise, and they
were wrong. Their models were wrong. Now they are telling us about the
dangers of "Climate Change", and not global warming. The fundamental problem
is that their models have been shown to be faulty.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>"Consensus" is a "Political Process to get agreement."
"Consensus Science" is thus "Political Science", and not "Real
Science."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I like this quote from the referenced
article:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>" <FONT face="Times New Roman">“The climate may
be heating up less in response to greenhouse-gas emissions than was once
thought,” read </FONT><A
href="http://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/21574461-climate-may-be-heating-up-less-response-greenhouse-gas-emissions"
target=_window><FONT face="Times New Roman">the article’s
tagline</FONT></A><FONT face="Times New Roman">. “But that does not mean the
problem is going away.”</FONT><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial># With their models having been proved to be faulty,
how do they know there is a problem?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Kevin</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----</DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(228,228,228); FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A title=jg45@icloud.com
href="mailto:jg45@icloud.com">Jock Gill</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass
cooking stoves</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Saturday, May 11, 2013 9:09
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Re: [Stoves] In praise of
kerosene</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Steve,</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Actually you have that wrong. The oceans are warming up
significantly, a very bad thing. It true that land temperatures have not
warmed as much as was expected. However this only buys a few extra
years before climate disruption becomes severe.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>All thesis well explained here: <A
href="http://nyti.ms/15sfbrd">http://nyti.ms/15sfbrd</A></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Regards,</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Jock</DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>Jock Gill</DIV>
<DIV>P.O. Box 3</DIV>
<DIV>Peacham, VT 05862</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Cell: (617) 449-8111</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>:> Extract CO2 from the atmosphere! <:</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Sent from my iPad</DIV>
<DIV><BR>On May 11, 2013, at 7:56 AM, Steve Taylor <<A
href="mailto:steve@thetaylorfamily.org.uk">steve@thetaylorfamily.org.uk</A>>
wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV dir=ltr>Do you imagine that the higher and higher the
concentration, the worse it gets ? Even the IPCC acknowledges that isn't
the case. 15 years of rapidly rising CO2 concentrations, and zero change
in global temperature, acknowledged by many, including the UK Met
Office.<SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_extra><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On 11 May 2013 12:43, Paul Olivier<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><SPAN dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:paul.olivier@esrla.com"
target=_blank>paul.olivier@esrla.com</A>></SPAN><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV dir=ltr>Are you serious?<BR></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_extra><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>
<DIV>
<DIV class=h5>On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 6:04 PM, Steve Taylor<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><SPAN dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:steve@thetaylorfamily.org.uk"
target=_blank>steve@thetaylorfamily.org.uk</A>></SPAN><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>wrote:<BR></DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV>
<DIV class=h5>
<DIV dir=ltr><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_extra>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV>Please read this - just in from the New York Times:<BR><A
href="http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/11/science/earth/carbon-dioxide-level-passes-long-feared-milestone.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20130511&_r=0"
target=_blank>http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/11/science/earth/carbon-dioxide-level-passes-long-feared-milestone.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20130511&_r=0</A><BR></DIV><BR></DIV><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV>Or. 0.04%<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Since we are all in favour of burning bio-mass, shouldn't we
prefer a higher level of CO2, which would significantly promote
plant growth, and encourage the growth of the stuff we want to burn
?<SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR></DIV></DIV>
<DIV
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<DIV class=im><BR><BR clear=all><BR>--<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>Paul A. Olivier
PhD<BR>26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong<BR>Dalat<BR>Vietnam<BR><BR>Louisiana
telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)<BR>Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in
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