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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear Ron</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rongretlarson@comcast.net
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, May 11, 2013 2:07
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] In praise of
kerosene</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">List:<BR><BR>I'd
be interested in our list deniers' opinions on these two short
videos<BR><BR> a. 2 minutes: <A
href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_0JZRIHFtk">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_0JZRIHFtk</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
This video is structured to support the IPCC and "believers." It seeks to
ignore the impact of Mother nature on Climate Change. <BR></STRONG><BR>
b. 30 seconds <A
href="http://neven1.typepad.com/blog/2013/04/ice-cube-volume-video.html">http://neven1.typepad.com/blog/2013/04/ice-cube-volume-video.html</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
This is a "dirty trick video" in that it selectively picks only the Northern
Hemisphere data, and is thus not relevant to GW or GCC.<BR><BR></STRONG>(There
are plenty more like this. Any we should look at from the deniers'
side?)</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG># The
"Believers" should include the power of Mother nature in their analysis. They
should open their minds to "True Science". The belief that the Sun revolved
around the Earth was a product of "Consensus
Science." <BR><BR></STRONG>To List master Andrew H - I am sorry to
disagree. I think there is considerable relevance between improved
stoves and climate.- especally when the deners promote a fossil alternative on
this biomass list.</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>#
Ron, I would respectfully disagree with you. Stoves should rise or fall on
their own merits. Could this discussion be moved to the biochar-policy List,
where a discussion of Climate Change issues is appropriate?</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>Thank
you.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG>Kevin<BR></STRONG><BR>Ron<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR id=zwchr>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B>From:
</B>"Jonathan P Gill" <jg45@icloud.com><BR><B>To: </B>"Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves" <stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><BR><B>Sent:
</B>Saturday, May 11, 2013 9:01:30 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: [Stoves] In
praise of kerosene<BR><BR>Kevin,</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">It was indeed
bad word smithing to have started with the term "Global Warming".
"Global Climate Disruption" is much more accurate, and, I would expect,
inevitable at this late stage. The models are only imperfect, not
wrong. Models can only be as good as the imperfections of our human
knowledge, which can never be perfect, so forget that argument. I doubt
very much that you claim perfect knowledge, so what are the imperfections in
your knowledge preventing you from seeing? As my friend Errol Morris
likes to say "believing is seeing".<BR>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>You are basically willfully reading the science incorrectly. The
models are imperfect but not "wrong" per se. If you read the items I
forwarded to the list, you might get a better understanding of the heat going
into the ocean, that, while imperfectly understood, is not a good thing.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>If you wait for the "perfect model" then your grandchildren will surely
have very unkind words to say about you. Even the British Royals have
recently had some strong words to say about climate change deniers such as you
appear to be. This will be just as true for the many "stovers" who are
also climate change deniers.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>At some deep meta level, the problem for many is that Climate Disruption
is the ultimate nail in the coffin of unearned white male privilege.
Which may also help explain why it is white males in the USA who go on
gun violence sprees, not others. IE, this is about a whole lot more than
CO2 in the atmosphere. It is about clinging a way of life with a fatal
internal contradiction: "modern" industrialism powered by fossil carbon.
As Hansen says, this is a truly Faustian bargain.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Cling if you must. I do not envy you trying to explain this to your
grandchildren.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Regards,</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Jock</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>On May 11, 2013, at 10:49 AM, Kevin <<A
href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net"
target=_blank>kchisholm@ca.inter.net</A>> wrote:</DIV><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV
style="WIDOWS: 2; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; FONT: medium Arial; WHITE-SPACE: normal; ORPHANS: 2; LETTER-SPACING: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"
dir=auto>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear Jock</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>The IPCC told us that "Global Warming" was the
problem. They predicted how much the air temperature would rise, and they
were wrong. Their models were wrong. Now they are telling us about the
dangers of "Climate Change", and not global warming. The fundamental problem
is that their models have been shown to be faulty.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>"Consensus" is a "Political Process to get agreement."
"Consensus Science" is thus "Political Science", and not "Real
Science."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I like this quote from the referenced
article:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>" <FONT face="Times New Roman">“The climate may
be heating up less in response to greenhouse-gas emissions than was once
thought,” read </FONT><A
href="http://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/21574461-climate-may-be-heating-up-less-response-greenhouse-gas-emissions"
target=_blank><FONT face="Times New Roman">the article’s
tagline</FONT></A><FONT face="Times New Roman">. “But that does not mean the
problem is going away.”</FONT><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial># With their models having been proved to be faulty,
how do they know there is a problem?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Kevin</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----</DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(228,228,228); FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A title=jg45@icloud.com
href="mailto:jg45@icloud.com" target=_blank>Jock Gill</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target=_blank>Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Saturday, May 11, 2013 9:09
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Re: [Stoves] In praise of
kerosene</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Steve,</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Actually you have that wrong. The oceans are warming up
significantly, a very bad thing. It true that land temperatures have not
warmed as much as was expected. However this only buys a few extra
years before climate disruption becomes severe.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>All thesis well explained here: <A
href="http://nyti.ms/15sfbrd"
target=_blank>http://nyti.ms/15sfbrd</A></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Regards,</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Jock</DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>Jock Gill</DIV>
<DIV>P.O. Box 3</DIV>
<DIV>Peacham, VT 05862</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Cell: (617) 449-8111</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>:> Extract CO2 from the atmosphere! <:</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Sent from my iPad</DIV>
<DIV><BR>On May 11, 2013, at 7:56 AM, Steve Taylor <<A
href="mailto:steve@thetaylorfamily.org.uk"
target=_blank>steve@thetaylorfamily.org.uk</A>> wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV dir=ltr>Do you imagine that the higher and higher the
concentration, the worse it gets ? Even the IPCC acknowledges that isn't
the case. 15 years of rapidly rising CO2 concentrations, and zero change
in global temperature, acknowledged by many, including the UK Met
Office.<SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_extra><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On 11 May 2013 12:43, Paul Olivier<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><SPAN dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:paul.olivier@esrla.com"
target=_blank>paul.olivier@esrla.com</A>></SPAN><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV dir=ltr>Are you serious?<BR></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_extra><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>
<DIV>
<DIV class=h5>On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 6:04 PM, Steve Taylor<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><SPAN dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:steve@thetaylorfamily.org.uk"
target=_blank>steve@thetaylorfamily.org.uk</A>></SPAN><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>wrote:<BR></DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV>
<DIV class=h5>
<DIV dir=ltr><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_extra>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV>Please read this - just in from the New York Times:<BR><A
href="http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/11/science/earth/carbon-dioxide-level-passes-long-feared-milestone.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20130511&_r=0"
target=_blank>http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/11/science/earth/carbon-dioxide-level-passes-long-feared-milestone.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20130511&_r=0</A><BR></DIV><BR></DIV><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV>Or. 0.04%<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Since we are all in favour of burning bio-mass, shouldn't we
prefer a higher level of CO2, which would significantly promote
plant growth, and encourage the growth of the stuff we want to burn
?<SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR></DIV></DIV>
<DIV
class=im>_______________________________________________<BR>Stoves
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<DIV class=im><BR><BR clear=all><BR>--<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>Paul A. Olivier
PhD<BR>26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong<BR>Dalat<BR>Vietnam<BR><BR>Louisiana
telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)<BR>Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in
Vietnam)<BR>Skype address: Xpolivier<BR><A
href="http://www.esrla.com/"
target=_blank>http://www.esrla.com/</A></DIV></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Stoves
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