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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#7030A0'>Robert,<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#7030A0'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#7030A0'>Thanks for all these interesting links. After owning a GEK power unit and seeing how well it produces a nice clean flame that could boil a lot of water and how simple the steam engine is with no chance of getting gummed up - it seems to me the way to go. We use tons of wood chips in compost and landscape cover that could be made into electricity and the hot gases produced could be put to use drying etc. But what do we do with all that electricity? Push rocks uphill for energy storage I guess. <o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#7030A0'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#7030A0'>Frank<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#7030A0'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#7030A0'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#7030A0'>Thanks <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#7030A0'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#7030A0'>Frank Shields<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#7030A0'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#7030A0'>BioChar Division<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#7030A0'>Control Laboratories, Inc. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#7030A0'>42 Hangar Way<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#7030A0'>Watsonville, CE 95076<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#7030A0'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#7030A0'>(831) 724-5422 tel<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#7030A0'>(81) 724-3188 fax<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#7030A0'><a href="mailto:frank@biocharlab.com"><span style='color:blue'>frank@biocharlab.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#7030A0'>www.controllabs.com<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#7030A0'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#7030A0'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#7030A0'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#7030A0'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#7030A0'> <o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#7030A0'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Fairchild<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 15, 2013 8:09 AM<br><b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves; Paul Anderson<br><b>Cc:</b> Ron Vanetten; Robert Lerner<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Green Steam Engine<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0><tr><td valign=top style='padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'><div id=yiv1925435639><table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0><tr><td style='padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'><div id=yiv1925435639><table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0><tr><td style='padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'><div id=yiv1925435639><table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0><tr><td style='padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>We go round and round on this. Steam power is neither cheap, easy, simple, or foolproof. See "getting started with steam" parts one and two at:<br><a href="http://www.mikebrownsolutions.com/aeindex.htm#steam">http://www.mikebrownsolutions.com/aeindex.htm#steam</a><br> Only plans and some parts available from Green Steam. This is not a design that has been proven by the test of time.The engine is only half the battle. The steam boiler is a critical (and potentially dangerous) part of the system.<br> Small commercially available steam boilers at:<br><a href="http://steamboating.net/page7.html">http://steamboating.net/page7.html</a><br>(and yes the columns are poorly formatted)<br>and American made steam engines at:<br><a href="http://www.mikebrownsolutions.com/mbsteam.htm">http://www.mikebrownsolutions.com/mbsteam.htm</a><br>prices on order form:<br><a href="http://www.mikebrownsolutions.com/order.htm">http://www.mikebrownsolutions.com/order.htm</a><br><br> and cheap Indian complete units at:<br><a href="http://www.tinytechindia.com/steampowerplan.htm">http://www.tinytechindia.com/steampowerplan.htm</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>("...These power plants are not automatic. Continuous manual feeding of wood or biomass to boiler is essential....")<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br> To put some numbers in perspective, TinyTech's 10 horsepower engine with a boiler and coupled to a 5 kilowatt generator costs $6600. (An American made version is probably twice as expensive) At 10% efficiency of heat to electricity (probably a little high Mike Brown says 5-8% <a href="http://www.mikebrownsolutions.com/steamart.htm">http://www.mikebrownsolutions.com/steamart.htm</a> ) you'll need 50 kW of heat which is roughly 25 lbs air dried biomass per hour. <br> Diesel electricity costs around 50 cents/kWh. The steam system will produce $2.50/hr of electricity, If the fuel is free and there are no other costs (labor, lubricants, maintenance, ...) after the system has run 51 hrs/wk for a year (2650 hrs) the average cost will be at 50 cents/kWh. (In your car 2650 hours at 40mph is 106,000 miles... zero maintenance?)<br><br> Yes, there's 45kW of "waste" heat but it is near the boiling point of water, so has limited uses, (not much use for cooking). <br> It could be used for drying with a radiator and fan or other heat exchanger system.<br><br> Bob the Curmudgeon<br><br><br><br>--- On <b>Wed, 5/15/13, Paul Anderson <i><<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>></i></b> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>From: Paul Anderson <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>><br>Subject: Re: [Stoves] Green Steam Engine<br>To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>Cc: "Robert Lerner" <<a href="mailto:bajarob@gmail.com">bajarob@gmail.com</a>>, "Ron Vanetten" <<a href="mailto:rsvanetten@hotmail.com">rsvanetten@hotmail.com</a>>, "Bob Fairchild" <<a href="mailto:solarbobky@yahoo.com">solarbobky@yahoo.com</a>><br>Date: Wednesday, May 15, 2013, 2:09 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p><div id=yiv1925435639><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Rob,<br><br>Very interesting. <br><br>Cost for unit and output?<br><br>Some technical people who understand stoves should please comment on this as functional or not. Cost is a secondary issue when electrical power is small quantities are possible!!!<br><br>Paul<o:p></o:p></span></p><pre>Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>On 5/14/2013 1:54 PM, Robert Lerner wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Here is a link to a very cool innovative steam engine design: <a href="http://www.greensteamengine.com/" target="_blank">http://www.greensteamengine.com/</a>. One big advantage of this design is that it scales down very nicely, suitable for small-scale TLUD burners. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>I saw it in operation several years ago. At the time he was looking for licensees. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Rob Lerner<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 10:54:57 -0700<br>From: "Frank Shields" <<a href="mailto:frank@compostlab.com">frank@compostlab.com</a>><br>To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"<br><span class=yiv1925435639apple-tab-span> </span><<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>Subject: [Stoves] Using all the energy when char making<br>Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:001e01ce5002$fb757a60$f2606f20$@compostlab.com">001e01ce5002$fb757a60$f2606f20$@compostlab.com</a>><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br><br>Stovers,<br><br>Seems there is often a lot of wasted energy that could be used when making<br>char that is just flared off. <br><br>I'm thinking the reason is that to convert to electricity one needs 1) a<br>very clean syngas 2) an expensive motor and 3) costly up-keep. The generator<br>is a onetime purchase with low maintenance.<br><br>So why not use a steam engine to convert the flame to electricity? Perhaps<br>not as efficient but all you are doing is heating water so the gas need not<br>be as clean as when drawn into an internal combustion engine. <br><br>Thanks <br>Frank Shields<br>BioChar Division<br>Control Laboratories, Inc. <br>42 Hangar Way<br>Watsonville, CE 95076<br>(831) 724-5422 tel<br>(81) 724-3188 fax<br><<a href="mailto:frank@biocharlab.com">mailto:frank@biocharlab.com</a>> <a href="mailto:frank@biocharlab.com">frank@biocharlab.com</a><br><a href="http://www.controllabs.com/" target="_blank">www.controllabs.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Stoves mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre></blockquote></div></div></td></tr></table></div></td></tr></table></div></td></tr></table></div></td></tr></table><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></body></html>