Hi All,<div><br></div><div>Let's remember that although burning natural gas when cooking adds CO2 to the atmosphere and sustainably harvested biomass can be carbon neutral, the biomass has to be completely combusted not to damage health, etc. </div>
<div><br></div><div>Complete combustion of biomass is a goal not yet a reality.</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Dean<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 3:34 PM, Paul Olivier <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:paul.olivier@esrla.com" target="_blank">paul.olivier@esrla.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Design stoves that are functional, safe and efficient. And don't forget, to design stoves that can be situated in modern kitchens. Getting rich people in developed countries to use biomass stoves should be one of our big priorities. I think that many of us grossly underestimate the power of the tlud concept. Imagine a small tlud less than 10 inches in height; made of high quality, long-lasting stainless steel; holding no more than about three or four cups of wood or straw pellets; capable of putting out 2 to 3 kW of heat over enough time to cook an average meal; elegantly contoured to match in beauty high-end kitchen accessories. Such a stove need not cost more than $50 US to fabricate. It would produce a beautiful blue flame that would rival that of a bottled gas stove. It would produce a valuable biochar for farms and gardens. It would be proudly used in London or Laos, Boston or Bangladesh. It would appeal to rich and poor alike. <br>
<br>Of course we can build cheap, tin can stoves. But why should we expect poor people to use them, while we would never dream of doing so, except, perhaps, on an occasional camping trip?<br><br></div>Paul Olivier<br></div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 7:12 PM, mtrevor <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:mtrevor@ntamar.net" target="_blank">mtrevor@ntamar.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<u></u>
<div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
<div><font face="Arial">I concur with Dr Tluds points and think in
particular Dr Belonio, Dr. Nurhuda and Paul Oliver all seem to have stoves
that could easily be poised to go commercial </font><font face="Arial">big time. They seem to work beautifully, are
physically good looking and are close to good fuel sources. In addition
</font><font face="Arial">they are located in places where industrial and
mechanical means of manufature exist.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">Not all of the rest of the world is so fortunate.
W</font><font face="Arial">hile these stoves are relatively economical
obtaining them is another issue. While a stove could be worth $</font><font face="Arial">25.00 $50.00 or even maybe $100.00 having to pay $200.00
$300 or $400.00 to obtain a sample for testing is beyond practicality. No matter
what efforts are expended tincanium and hammered tin has little appeal here. In
these day of ipads and iphones </font><font face="Arial">style is a
major hurdle.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Lurking in the backgound at the end of the
earth.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Michael N Trevor</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">Marshall Islands</font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">. </font></div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#000000 2px solid;PADDING-LEFT:5px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;MARGIN-LEFT:5px;MARGIN-RIGHT:0px" dir="ltr">
<div style="FONT:10pt arial;BACKGROUND:#e4e4e4"><b>From:</b>
<a title="psanders@ilstu.edu" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">Paul Anderson</a>
</div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</a> </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Cc:</b> <a title="terra-matricula@hotmail.com" href="mailto:terra-matricula@hotmail.com" target="_blank">Otto Formo</a> </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, May 26, 2013 11:28 PM</div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> [Stoves] Specifics about
advancement of TLUD stoves Re: fan expertise?</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Dear all, This is a different and more
specific reply to Otto's message.<br><br>I see four things that will greatly
advance the position of micro-gasifier stoves, specifically the TLUD
stoves. I am working on all four of them.<br><br>1. Prove
that stove users will accept TLUD gasifier stoves (at reasonable price, but
this is not about price.) and (with a reasonable supply chain for appropriate
fuels, but this is not about fuels) : <br><br>We lack meaningful studies
that show that TLUD stoves (when available and with fuels available) are
accepted by "typical" cookstove users in any significant segment of the
population. We need some documentation that xx number of TLUD users
(out of yy number of households that seriously tried TLUD stoves) are still
using the stoves zz percent of the time for their cooking, and this is over
time periods that are checked again and again each few
months. Comments from users should be reported.<br><br>Start
small, and do it well. The money for the bigger studies will
follow success with the small numbers. This is NOT about
sales. This is about sustained usage.<br><br>We are working on
this topic at Awamu in Uganda with the Quad TLUD stove, but no results to
report at this time. Is anyone else doing such
studies?<br><br>2. Compilation of past results and further data
collection about emissions and efficiencies of TLUD stoves. Some TLUD
have had major success. And others "suck". Which ones
and why? We seek data from the stove testing centers.
We also will do further work at Stove Camps in the coming 3
months.<br><br>3. Prove the capacities to produce sufficient numbers of
TLUD stoves with excellent functioning. The response must be
credible for numbers of many 10s of thousands for stoves per year.
20 tinsmiths seated in a factory is not sufficient proof. Prof.
Nurhuda has shown that metal stamping can produce his TLUD stoves with good
quality. I do not doubt that capacity worldwide could be
sufficient when demand is there, but with the goal of creating in-country
jobs, for most situations "proof" is still not in hand.<br><br>4. Bring
the price below US$10 for the low-end products that are still functional about
emissions and efficiencies. I am working on this and I hope
to report about it at the July stove camp at Aprovecho where TLUD stoves are a
focal issue.<br><br>Note that I did NOT add on having different TLUD stoves
such as the ones with fans like Ron is discussing. When they
become available, that will be wonderful. But then such stoves will
still need to be considered regarding # 1 and #2 and #3 above.
They might be the breakthrough for gaining acceptance, or lower emissions, or
whatever.<br><br>Paul<br><br><pre cols="72">Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> Skype: paultlud Phone: <a href="tel:%2B1-309-452-7072" value="+13094527072" target="_blank">+1-309-452-7072</a>
Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>On
5/26/2013 2:46 AM, Otto Formo wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Ron<br> <br>I do not see any point in arguing with all and
anybody, to try to convince them , that <strong>gasifing of biomass
</strong>are here to BE and will develop more rapidly, than anyone ever
belived.<br> <br>What about the issue of biomass as fuel?<br>Here are a
LOT of challanges in preparation, production, handeling
etc.<br> <br>Paul A and Ron, <br>If, "Open Source", realy means
something to you, then create a group of "belivers" and start from
there.<br> <br>Thanks.<br> <br>Otto<br> <br>
<div>
<hr>
<br></div></div></blockquote><br>
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<br></blockquote></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Paul A. Olivier PhD<br>26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong<br>Dalat<br>Vietnam<br>
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