<html><head></head><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div><br>Kevin</div><div><br></div><div> I presume this question is because of my statement below about " ...<span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); ">the need to eliminate fossil fuels altogether..?</span></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);"> My statement about superior cleanliness for TLUDs has been on this list at least a dozen times - especially from Dean and Paul Anderson. Look up what is said about the Philips stove.<br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);"> I'll go doing a bigger search as soon as you answer mr last request for a real cite?</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);">Ron</span></font></div><div><br>On May 27, 2013, at 8:08 PM, "Kevin" <<a href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
<meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
<meta name="GENERATOR" content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.23487">
<div><font face="Arial">Dear Ron</font></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><b>From:</b>
<a title="rongretlarson@comcast.net" href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Monday, May 27, 2013 1:39 PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Advancement of
"better" stoves</div>
<div><br></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Dean:<br><br>
I know you know this, but some of us are in the stove development "business"
because we want messages like yours below to also include the words "carbon
negative" Surprisingly, those stoves that can be carbon negative seem
also to have the cleanest combustion. </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><strong># 1:
Specifically, what kinds of stoves are you talking about?</strong></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><strong>#2:
Do you have any measurements that you can present to show that such "carbon
negative stoves" have cleaner combustion than other stoves which are not
"carbon negative"?</strong></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><strong></strong> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><strong>Thanks.</strong></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><strong></strong> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><strong>Kevin</strong></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Paul O's
seems to be in this nice class. This is not to mention the global
need for soil improvement, the need to eliminate fossil fuels altogether, and
other benefits like low or negative annual cost that come with
biochar<br><br> I repeat that I know you know this.
Some on this list don't. <br><br> Thanks for all
that you and Aprovecho are doing to advance the science of (especially clean)
stove operation.<br><br> Ron<br><br></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<hr id="zwchr">
</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><b>From:
</b>"Dean Still" <<a href="mailto:deankstill@gmail.com">deankstill@gmail.com</a>><br><b>To: </b>"Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves" <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br><b>Sent:
</b>Monday, May 27, 2013 9:47:12 AM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves]
Advancement of "better" stoves<br><br>Hi All,</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><br></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Let's
remember that although burning natural gas when cooking adds CO2 to the
atmosphere and sustainably harvested biomass can be carbon neutral, the
biomass has to be completely combusted not to damage health, etc. </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><br></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Complete
combustion of biomass is a goal not yet a reality.</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><br></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Best,</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><br></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Dean<br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 3:34 PM, Paul Olivier <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:paul.olivier@esrla.com" target="_blank">paul.olivier@esrla.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Design stoves that are functional, safe and efficient. And don't
forget, to design stoves that can be situated in modern kitchens. Getting
rich people in developed countries to use biomass stoves should be one of
our big priorities. I think that many of us grossly underestimate the power
of the tlud concept. Imagine a small tlud less than 10 inches in height;
made of high quality, long-lasting stainless steel; holding no more than
about three or four cups of wood or straw pellets; capable of putting out 2
to 3 kW of heat over enough time to cook an average meal; elegantly
contoured to match in beauty high-end kitchen accessories. Such a stove need
not cost more than $50 US to fabricate. It would produce a beautiful blue
flame that would rival that of a bottled gas stove. It would produce a
valuable biochar for farms and gardens. It would be proudly used in London
or Laos, Boston or Bangladesh. It would appeal to rich and poor alike.
<br><br>Of course we can build cheap, tin can stoves. But why should we
expect poor people to use them, while we would never dream of doing so,
except, perhaps, on an occasional camping trip?<br><br></div>Paul
Olivier<br></div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 7:12 PM, mtrevor <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:mtrevor@ntamar.net" target="_blank">mtrevor@ntamar.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote"><u></u>
<div>
<div><font face="Arial">I concur with Dr Tluds points and think in
particular Dr Belonio, Dr. Nurhuda and Paul Oliver all seem to have
stoves that could easily be poised to go commercial </font><font face="Arial">big time. They seem to work beautifully,
are physically good looking and are close to good fuel sources. In
addition </font><font face="Arial">they are located in places where
industrial and mechanical means of manufature exist.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">Not all of the rest of the world is so fortunate.
W</font><font face="Arial">hile these stoves are relatively economical
obtaining them is another issue. While a stove could be
worth $</font><font face="Arial">25.00 $50.00 or even maybe
$100.00 having to pay $200.00 $300 or $400.00 to obtain a sample for
testing is beyond practicality. No matter what efforts are expended
tincanium and hammered tin has little appeal here. In these day of ipads
and iphones </font><font face="Arial">style is a major
hurdle.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Lurking in the backgound at the end of the
earth.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Michael N Trevor</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">Marshall Islands</font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">. </font></div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" dir="ltr">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><b>From:</b> <a title="psanders@ilstu.edu" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">Paul Anderson</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Discussion
of biomass cooking stoves</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Cc:</b> <a title="terra-matricula@hotmail.com" href="mailto:terra-matricula@hotmail.com" target="_blank">Otto Formo</a>
</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, May 26, 2013 11:28
PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> [Stoves] Specifics about
advancement of TLUD stoves Re: fan expertise?</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Dear all, This is a different and more specific reply
to Otto's message.<br><br>I see four things that will greatly advance
the position of micro-gasifier stoves, specifically the TLUD
stoves. I am working on all four of them.<br><br>1.
Prove that stove users will accept TLUD gasifier stoves (at reasonable
price, but this is not about price.) and (with a reasonable supply chain
for appropriate fuels, but this is not about fuels) : <br><br>We
lack meaningful studies that show that TLUD stoves (when available and
with fuels available) are accepted by "typical" cookstove users in any
significant segment of the population. We need some documentation
that xx number of TLUD users (out of yy number of households that
seriously tried TLUD stoves) are still using the stoves zz percent of
the time for their cooking, and this is over time periods that are
checked again and again each few months. Comments from
users should be reported.<br><br>Start small, and do it
well. The money for the bigger studies will follow success
with the small numbers. This is NOT about
sales. This is about sustained usage.<br><br>We are working
on this topic at Awamu in Uganda with the Quad TLUD stove, but no
results to report at this time. Is anyone else doing
such studies?<br><br>2. Compilation of past results and further
data collection about emissions and efficiencies of TLUD stoves.
Some TLUD have had major success. And others
"suck". Which ones and why? We seek data from
the stove testing centers. We also will do further work at
Stove Camps in the coming 3 months.<br><br>3. Prove the capacities
to produce sufficient numbers of TLUD stoves with excellent
functioning. The response must be credible for numbers of
many 10s of thousands for stoves per year. 20 tinsmiths
seated in a factory is not sufficient proof. Prof. Nurhuda
has shown that metal stamping can produce his TLUD stoves with good
quality. I do not doubt that capacity worldwide could be
sufficient when demand is there, but with the goal of creating
in-country jobs, for most situations "proof" is still not in
hand.<br><br>4. Bring the price below US$10 for the low-end
products that are still functional about emissions and
efficiencies. I am working on this and I hope to
report about it at the July stove camp at Aprovecho where TLUD stoves
are a focal issue.<br><br>Note that I did NOT add on having different
TLUD stoves such as the ones with fans like Ron is
discussing. When they become available, that will be
wonderful. But then such stoves will still need to be considered
regarding # 1 and #2 and #3 above. They might be the
breakthrough for gaining acceptance, or lower emissions, or
whatever.<br><br>Paul<br><br><pre>Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> Skype: paultlud Phone: <a href="tel:%2B1-309-452-7072" target="_blank">+1-309-452-7072</a>
Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>On
5/26/2013 2:46 AM, Otto Formo wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote>
<div dir="ltr">Ron<br> <br>I do not see any point in arguing with
all and anybody, to try to convince them , that <strong>gasifing of
biomass </strong>are here to BE and will develop more rapidly, than
anyone ever belived.<br> <br>What about the issue of biomass as
fuel?<br>Here are a LOT of challanges in preparation, production,
handeling etc.<br> <br>Paul A and Ron, <br>If, "Open Source",
realy means something to you, then create a group of "belivers" and
start from there.<br> <br>Thanks.<br> <br>Otto<br> <br>
<div>
<hr>
<br></div></div></blockquote><br>
<p></p>
<hr>
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<hr>
<p></p><a></a>
<p align="left">No virus found in this message.<br>Checked by AVG - <a href="http://www.avg.com" target="_blank">www.avg.com</a><br>Version:
2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3184/6358 - Release Date: 05/25/13</p>
<p></p>
<p></p></blockquote></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves
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Olivier PhD<br>26/5 Phu Dong Thien
Vuong<br>Dalat<br>Vietnam<br><br>Louisiana telephone: <a href="tel:1-337-447-4124" target="_blank">1-337-447-4124</a> (rings
Vietnam)<br>Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)<br>Skype address:
Xpolivier<br><a href="http://www.esrla.com/" target="_blank">http://www.esrla.com/</a>
</font></span></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves
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