<html><head><style type='text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><div style='font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'>Rogerio cc List<br><br> 1. This is to followup on your and my point # 5, which went like this<br><br>On the 27th, I said: <font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <i> 5. Brazil (along the
Amazon) being the home of Terra Preta, we who are interested in carbon
sequestration are hoping to hear more from Brazil on charcoal-making
stoves. What do you hear about Brazilians looking for char-making
stoves?</i><br>
</font><br>Today, I responded to yours of yesterday this way:<br><br><div> <i>As for charcoal stoves in Brazil, it has not been developed as
yet. Millions of families uses it for cooking in the north, but
traditional less efficient models. Char-making stoves have not been
explored yet, However we aim to develop a model for that market in the
near future.<br> <b>[RWL6: I will write separate note on this topic.<br><br></b></i></div><i>
</i><div><br></div> 2. So, re char-using stoves, I am hoping they disappear, when their negative features are better explained to users<br><br> I write this hoping that a small modification of what you now do can produce significant (20%?) char - and might be along the line of what you were gong to do.<br><br><br> 3. At the next-to-last-day Phnom Penh demonstration of operating stoves, there was only one I think that looked somewhat like yours. <u><b>NOT</b></u> rocket-like at one end, and maybe a 1 meter stove pipe at the other end and (not sure) one or two holes to allow flames to hit a pot bottom. Replacing the rocket-like end opening was a single hole on the TOP surface, Longer pieces of wood slowly were consumed, being fed downward by gravity.<br><br> I think they could control power levels by varying both fuel amounts and air flow - both through this same single top-surface air vent. They might (or you might) also control through the single top surface hole. I don't believe these developers (Sorry I don't have their names) were striving at all for char. So the (maybe) new idea here is to have only a single controllable top surface fuel-air hole. One down side could be not wanting to see a big stick next to a cookpot. Conversely, it is easy to look in, and feeding the fire takes less time.<br><br><br> 4. The reason that this might give some satisfactory char production is the relatively small air flow that can reach the char forming at the bottom. There are folks in Hawaii making char in trenches with somewhat this same principle of fire above, char below. Then shutting off air flow at the right time. The char brought out at first through the existing large end (formerly both air and fuel) hole. Later probably better ways to retrieve the char.<br><br> <br> 5. I am assuming you might be able to test this approach with an existing unit - with a make-shift closure of the usual Rocket main air/fuel hole.<br><br><br> 6. No guarantees that you'd make much char, but you might - and hopefully the test is relatively cheap for you, with so many models already around. 20% char by weight could mean that such stoves could make money for the owners.<br><br>Ron<br><br><br><br><br><hr id="zwchr"><b>From: </b>rongretlarson@comcast.net<br><b>To: </b>"Rogerio carneiro de miranda" <carneirodemiranda@gmail.com>, "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><br><b>Sent: </b>Wednesday, May 29, 2013 12:44:36 PM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves<br><br><style>p { margin: 0; }</style><div style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000"><style>p { margin: 0; }</style><div style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000">Rogerio etal<br><br> See below<br><br><hr id="zwchr"><b>From: </b>"Rogerio carneiro de miranda" <carneirodemiranda@gmail.com><br><b>To: </b>rongretlarson@comcast.net<br><b>Cc: </b>"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><br><b>Sent: </b>Tuesday, May 28, 2013 10:56:38 AM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves<br><br>Dear Ron, Crispin, et al <div><br></div><div>Good to hear from you after all these years. </div><div><br></div><div>Ron, last time we were together, I believe we were in a favela of Managua measuring IAP, while Bill Clinton was literaly flying over our heads with his helicopter visiting Nicaragua after hurricane Mitch.<br><b><br> [RWL1. Yes. This reminder allows me to recall the visit much have been in Nov-Dec. 1998. While we were testing, Gretchen was somehow near one of the 4 villages that got wiped out. She saw bones sticking out of the mud. Wikipedia says 3800 killed in Nicaragua due to Mitch.<br><br> The kitchens we visited were as smokey as I recall ever seeing.</b><br><b><br> One stove-related topic that may never have been mentioned on this list was the wonderful volcano-produced "sawn slabs" you showed me. I think the material was wonderfully strong and a good thermal insulator. A nearby mountain was disappearing. Much better for stoves I think that most any other material.</b> <b> I have been told we don't know how to reproduce them<br></b></div><b>
</b><div><br></div><div>Yes Proleña Nicaragua is very much active, although I am not involved anymore. Visit them at <a href="http://prolenaecofogon.org/" target="_blank">http://prolenaecofogon.org/</a><br> [<b><br>[RWL2. A good site. Nice to see TWP's and your corporate names there. I am guessing they miss you a lot.</b><br></div><div><br></div><div>I have never stopped working with stoves, but always in the background, even if I was busy with something else.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Belo Horizonte is my home town, but I am here because to make a living out of stoves, here is a good place to be since middle class people in southern Brazil likes to cook on woodstoves for recreational reasons (weekends and holidays with family and friends). Due to that, our company Ecofogão can focus on two market segments, 1) the middle class who can pay US$ 500 for an stove and sustain the company, and 2) the poor from the northeast who need a cheaper stove model, and for whom we are working hard with NGOs and local governments to develop that market.</div>
<div><br></div><div>The plancha stove you saw in our website was first designed by Proleña in Managua with the big help from Larry Winiarsky around the year 2000, and here in Brazil it has been very well accepted since people want ovens. Adding water heater was easier, as traditionally rural homes always uses hot water from woodstoves, and one can buy the accessories in the hardware stores, like coil, pipes and hot water tanks for stoves.</div>
<div><br></div><div>One additional usage is space heating, since it is a quite clean stove for indoors. Our clients use it in cool areas of southern Brazil to keep the kitchen and house warm. I have one myself at a mountain house, which cook, bake, heat the water for shower and kitchen, and moreover warn our house, all tasks with a maximun consumption of just 1.3 kg of wood per hour.<br><b><br> [RWL3: The efficiency of your type of stove goes way up when you can involve space heating.</b> <b> This about 6.5 kW. I have no experience with this sort of stove. If just using one large pot as in the GACC testing, can you estimate the wood rate and/or efficiency? Or should you do that test with the whole surface covered with pots?</b><br><br></div><div>This stove is now being sold to families who lives in apartments as well. Some modern condos in southern Brazil are now coming with a central chimney for charcoal barbecue stoves (churrasco). Some people instead of barbecue stove prefers a woodstove, and so they replace it with our Ecofogão and connect it to the central chimney, which works very well. This is a new market segment.<b><br> [RWL4: Interesting combination. Brazil was very impressive during the 2010 International biochar conference in Rio. Maybe Brazil is just right for your types of stoves.</b><br></div>
<div><br></div><div>While I was at the World Bank (actually ESMAP), upper management was not interested on cook stoves at that time. Now the tide has changed, and seems that The World Bank is doing more on this front.. <br> <b>[RWL5: I have not followed ESMAP - perhaps because there has been no US involvement. I looked around the site (found that 17 publications popped up with your name - some have char-making stoves aspects. Anything from ESMAP we should look at carefully?</b><br></div>
<div><br></div><div>Ecofogão is partnered with GACC, and we will put their logo in our website soon.</div><div><br></div><div>As for charcoal stoves in Brazil, it has not been developed as yet. Millions of families uses it for cooking in the north, but traditional less efficient models. Char-making stoves have not been explored yet, However we aim to develop a model for that market in the near future.<br> <b>[RWL6: I will write separate note on this topic.</b><br></div>
<div><br></div><div>Our path to develop a middle class wood stove was a business strategy to take advantage of the recreational market, and sustain the business. The only donation we have received was from Trees, Water and People who supported us during our first year (2004), but other than that we have sustained ourselves only through sales, which has been a long and difficult path.<b><br> [RWL7. Congratulations for hanging in there. I hope you keep growing, and bet you will. Ron</b><br></div>
<div><br></div><div>Best</div><div><br></div><div>Rogério</div><div><br></div><div> </div><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">2013/5/27 <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial">Rogerio, cc stove list<br><br> Very wonderful site and set of different models! Congratulations on their development.<br>
<br>Since you have been in (but sometimes out of) the stove business about as long as anyone on this list perhaps you can answer a few questions.<br><br> 1. Is there still a Pro Lena activity in Managua - and are you also involved there?<br>
<br> 2. Did you grow up in <font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Belo Horizonte - MG, or are there other reasons for that location?<br><br> 3. The short video of you explaining the stove while cooking had 8 different activities (5 pots, two trays in oven, and hot water) going on. Typcally we hear that the plancha type stoves are not so efficient, but this looks like a world record for compactness of activities. Can you explain a bit more on your rationale for gong to the design you demonstrated.<br>
<br> 4. You spent some time at the World Bank. Can you tell a little of any stove-related experiences there?<br><br> 5. Brazil (along the Amazon) being the home of Terra Preta, we who are interested in carbon sequestration are hoping to hear more from Brazil on charcoal-making stoves. What do you hear about Brazilians looking for char-making stoves?<br>
<br> 6. You show PCIA, but not GACC on your website, and we didn't see you in Phnom Penh. Will you be active in GACC?<br><br> 7. Your note below to Paul O was very positive - and the video was excellent. Your stoves look very well designed and made. Any lessons or negatives to report about the path you have been on for many years - so as to help others on this list?<br>
<br>Ron<br></font><br><hr><b>From: </b>"Rogerio carneiro de miranda" <<a href="mailto:carneirodemiranda@gmail.com" target="_blank">carneirodemiranda@gmail.com</a>><br><b>To: </b>"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
<b>Sent: </b>Monday, May 27, 2013 7:48:19 AM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves<div><div class="h5"><br><br>Paul, <div><br></div><div>We are already installing Ecostoves powered by rocket stoves into middle class homes, as pictured (<a href="http://www.ecofogao.com.br/index.php?id=29" target="_blank">http://www.ecofogao.com.br/index.php?id=29</a>), and we hope one day TLUD will be able to enter this same market. We are waiting for the technology to mature a bit more, to introduce Ecostoves powered by TLUD for middle class, who can pay easily US$ 200+ for such stove.<div>
<br></div><div>Paul Anderson was here in 2004 trying to develop a combined stove TLUD and Rocket stove, but at that time it was not practical to use it yet.<br><div><br></div><div>Rogério<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">
2013/5/26 Paul Olivier <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:paul.olivier@esrla.com" target="_blank">paul.olivier@esrla.com</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Design stoves that are functional, safe and efficient. And don't forget, to design stoves that can be situated in modern kitchens. Getting rich people in developed countries to use biomass stoves should be one of our big priorities. I think that many of us grossly underestimate the power of the tlud concept. Imagine a small tlud less than 10 inches in height; made of high quality, long-lasting stainless steel; holding no more than about three or four cups of wood or straw pellets; capable of putting out 2 to 3 kW of heat over enough time to cook an average meal; elegantly contoured to match in beauty high-end kitchen accessories. Such a stove need not cost more than $50 US to fabricate. It would produce a beautiful blue flame that would rival that of a bottled gas stove. It would produce a valuable biochar for farms and gardens. It would be proudly used in London or Laos, Boston or Bangladesh. It would appeal to rich and poor alike. <br>
<br>Of course we can build cheap, tin can stoves. But why should we expect poor people to use them, while we would never dream of doing so, except, perhaps, on an occasional camping trip?<br><br></div>Paul Olivier<br></div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 7:12 PM, mtrevor <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:mtrevor@ntamar.net" target="_blank">mtrevor@ntamar.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<u></u>
<div>
<div><font face="Arial">I concur with Dr Tluds points and think in
particular Dr Belonio, Dr. Nurhuda and Paul Oliver all seem to have stoves
that could easily be poised to go commercial </font><font face="Arial">big time. They seem to work beautifully, are
physically good looking and are close to good fuel sources. In addition
</font><font face="Arial">they are located in places where industrial and
mechanical means of manufature exist.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">Not all of the rest of the world is so fortunate.
W</font><font face="Arial">hile these stoves are relatively economical
obtaining them is another issue. While a stove could be worth $</font><font face="Arial">25.00 $50.00 or even maybe $100.00 having to pay $200.00
$300 or $400.00 to obtain a sample for testing is beyond practicality. No matter
what efforts are expended tincanium and hammered tin has little appeal here. In
these day of ipads and iphones </font><font face="Arial">style is a
major hurdle.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Lurking in the backgound at the end of the
earth.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Michael N Trevor</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">Marshall Islands</font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">. </font></div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#000000 2px solid;PADDING-LEFT:5px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;MARGIN-LEFT:5px;MARGIN-RIGHT:0px" dir="ltr">
<div style="FONT:10pt arial;BACKGROUND:#e4e4e4"><b>From:</b>
<a title="psanders@ilstu.edu" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">Paul Anderson</a>
</div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</a> </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Cc:</b> <a title="terra-matricula@hotmail.com" href="mailto:terra-matricula@hotmail.com" target="_blank">Otto Formo</a> </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, May 26, 2013 11:28 PM</div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> [Stoves] Specifics about
advancement of TLUD stoves Re: fan expertise?</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Dear all, This is a different and more
specific reply to Otto's message.<br><br>I see four things that will greatly
advance the position of micro-gasifier stoves, specifically the TLUD
stoves. I am working on all four of them.<br><br>1. Prove
that stove users will accept TLUD gasifier stoves (at reasonable price, but
this is not about price.) and (with a reasonable supply chain for appropriate
fuels, but this is not about fuels) : <br><br>We lack meaningful studies
that show that TLUD stoves (when available and with fuels available) are
accepted by "typical" cookstove users in any significant segment of the
population. We need some documentation that xx number of TLUD users
(out of yy number of households that seriously tried TLUD stoves) are still
using the stoves zz percent of the time for their cooking, and this is over
time periods that are checked again and again each few
months. Comments from users should be reported.<br><br>Start
small, and do it well. The money for the bigger studies will
follow success with the small numbers. This is NOT about
sales. This is about sustained usage.<br><br>We are working on
this topic at Awamu in Uganda with the Quad TLUD stove, but no results to
report at this time. Is anyone else doing such
studies?<br><br>2. Compilation of past results and further data
collection about emissions and efficiencies of TLUD stoves. Some TLUD
have had major success. And others "suck". Which ones
and why? We seek data from the stove testing centers.
We also will do further work at Stove Camps in the coming 3
months.<br><br>3. Prove the capacities to produce sufficient numbers of
TLUD stoves with excellent functioning. The response must be
credible for numbers of many 10s of thousands for stoves per year.
20 tinsmiths seated in a factory is not sufficient proof. Prof.
Nurhuda has shown that metal stamping can produce his TLUD stoves with good
quality. I do not doubt that capacity worldwide could be
sufficient when demand is there, but with the goal of creating in-country
jobs, for most situations "proof" is still not in hand.<br><br>4. Bring
the price below US$10 for the low-end products that are still functional about
emissions and efficiencies. I am working on this and I hope
to report about it at the July stove camp at Aprovecho where TLUD stoves are a
focal issue.<br><br>Note that I did NOT add on having different TLUD stoves
such as the ones with fans like Ron is discussing. When they
become available, that will be wonderful. But then such stoves will
still need to be considered regarding # 1 and #2 and #3 above.
They might be the breakthrough for gaining acceptance, or lower emissions, or
whatever.<br><br>Paul<br><br><pre>Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> Skype: paultlud Phone: <a href="tel:%2B1-309-452-7072" target="_blank">+1-309-452-7072</a>
Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>On
5/26/2013 2:46 AM, Otto Formo wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote>
<div dir="ltr">Ron<br> <br>I do not see any point in arguing with all and
anybody, to try to convince them , that <strong>gasifing of biomass
</strong>are here to BE and will develop more rapidly, than anyone ever
belived.<br> <br>What about the issue of biomass as fuel?<br>Here are a
LOT of challanges in preparation, production, handeling
etc.<br> <br>Paul A and Ron, <br>If, "Open Source", realy means
something to you, then create a group of "belivers" and start from
there.<br> <br>Thanks.<br> <br>Otto<br> <br>
<div>
<hr>
<br></div></div></blockquote><br>
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