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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Jeff and Erin were transferring things to the stoves site and I don’t think it was completed. None of the fireball stories seem to come up. We’ll fix it and let you know. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Tom<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><a name="_MailEndCompose"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></a></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>rongretlarson@comcast.net<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 11, 2013 12:23 PM<br><b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves; mtrevor<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Michael<br><br> Thanks for the lead. The URL seems to have lapsed.<br><br>Ron<o:p></o:p></span></p><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><hr size=3 width="100%" align=center id=zwchr></span></div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>From: </span></b><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>"mtrevor" <<a href="mailto:mtrevor@ntamar.net">mtrevor@ntamar.net</a>><br><b>To: </b>"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br><b>Sent: </b>Tuesday, June 11, 2013 12:55:29 PM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets<br><br> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Dear ALL </span><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>For some of Jeff Davis's work try <a href="http://www.puffergas.com" target="_blank">www.puffergas.com</a></span><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Michael</span><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank" title="rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank" title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking stoves</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sent:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Wednesday, June 12, 2013 6:51 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Subject:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Tom cc list<br><br>Tom - thanks for the added info. Most of this note on making balls<br><br> 1. I found a nice fairly recent article on balls (and char-making stoves) by Jeff Davis at<br> <a href="http://ccs.infospace.com/ClickHandler.ashx?du=arecop.org%2fdownload%2fGlow%252038A.pdf&ru=http%3a%2f%2farecop.org%2fdownload%2fGlow%252038A.pdf&ld=20130611&ap=10&app=1&c=acpro16.ggl7&s=acpro16&coi=771&cop=main-title&euip=71.237.22.183&npp=10&p=0&pp=0&pvaid=edfc4758aa8a44cebb467c59acc46071&ep=5&mid=9&hash=E74ECE29983A9CA222F95C2F896B8B3D" target="_blank"><cite><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";text-decoration:none'>arecop.org/download/Glow 38A.pdf</span></cite></a><br><br> could not find an email address for Jeff. Has this journal stopped publication? Sorry if so.<br><br> 2.I vaguely remember the "ball" topic, but I was off on other topics back in 2006-2007 when all of the stove archives on this "ball" topc exist. Can you (anyone) fill in on more of this story? Anything commercial going on? Is this the lowest energy form of production?<br><br> 3. In trying to follow up on the fireball story, the first video at <br> <a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/taxonomy/term/576">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/taxonomy/term/576</a><br>said it didn't exist. Can we maybe get it back?<br><br>Ron<o:p></o:p></span></p><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><hr size=3 width="100%" align=center id=zwchr></span></div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>From: </span></b><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>"Tom Miles" <<a href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com">tmiles@trmiles.com</a>><br><b>To: </b>"Paul Anderson" <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>>, "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br><b>Sent: </b>Tuesday, June 11, 2013 10:14:34 AM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets<br><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Paul,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Look for their meat grinder. If you have a cake or meal like fuel you can make a wet meal and extrude spaghetti-like pellets that are cut off as you make them. Then dry it. You end up with a dried lump like Jeff Davis’ fireballs – a low density but nicely shaped fuel pellet. Dog food is made the same way. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>We use the technique for making pellets for fiber and seed mixes but there is no reason why you can’t make fuel pellets that way. We have seen this technique used for cooking stoves in small projects in India and China. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The advantage for a stove fuel is that making a wet meal and drying it is a low energy process. When we used to make ag pellets with binders we probably used about 30-50 kWh/ton. In the 1980s pellet mills were re-designed to make dense fuel pellets that depend on heating the fiber to 90 C in the die to enhance adhesion through hydrogen (paper) bonding and lignin flow. Specific power consumption increased to 75-100 kWh/ton in the pellet mill because yiou are converting electrical energy to heat. Particles need to be dry (<8% MC) and fine (<6 mm) to make a good pellet. Christa has a small, capacity, mill that makes fuel pellets in this way. There are also the Chinese mills with vertical dies that can be used. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Remember Jeff Davis’ fireballs? He put wet fuel into a cement mixer, rolled it into balls and dried it out. He showed that it made great fuel for a TLUD gasifier. Why not a stove?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Tom</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> Paul Anderson [<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 11, 2013 6:20 AM<br><b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br><b>Cc:</b> Tom Miles<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Tom,<br><br>My quick look at Cabela's site did not turn up any pellet or briquette maker. Please provide a link.<br><br>Paul<o:p></o:p></p><pre>Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre><p class=MsoNormal>On 6/11/2013 7:25 AM, Tom Miles wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The world is full of failed densification systems. You don’t have to go all the way to a high density (35 lb/ft3) fuel pellet. Put the crumbled cake through a meat grinder with a large sieve and dry out the pellets. Make’s a great fuel. $1,000 from Cabela’s. It’s a mini version of Richard’s press. There are Chinese versions of course. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Tom</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Stoves [<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>mtrevor<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 11, 2013 4:25 AM<br><b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>I absolutely agree with you right down the line, however I am generally the odd man out.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>The only pelleting machine they had here was in the copra mill for the cake. </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>It was phased out years ago Now they just move bulk crumble. Even though you do not approve</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>the crumbled cake burned nicely in my XL woodgas stove. </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>There is no coir dust as the is no industrial processing of husks. Beside the husks are spread ove an area </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>maybe 1/3 of the entire United States</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>there is a very small scale briquetting operation based on one of Richard Stanley's </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>lever press and scrap paper at the local waste company. Effective processing of biomass waste would be important </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>but its limited diffuse distributed nature makes this nearly impossible. </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>There are some real challenges involved here.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Michael N Trevor. </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>. </span> <o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>----- Original Message ----- </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:paul.olivier@esrla.com" target="_blank" title="paul.olivier@esrla.com">Paul Olivier</a> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank" title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking stoves</a> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sent:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Tuesday, June 11, 2013 8:29 PM</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Subject:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Michael,<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal>Can you access pellets in the Marshal Islands?<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal>Do you have coconut dust in the Marshal Islands?<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal>Coconut dust is in an ideal powder form for pelletizing,<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal> and it contains a lot of lignin that should serve as a natural binder.<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal>I would urge funding agencies to get involved in the finance of pellet machines throughout the world.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Funding agencies should also be investing heavily in biochar research.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>When farmers understand the value of biochar, it will acquire value.<br>Its sale will cover the cost of making pellets.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Once again, fuel preparation is critical.<br>Imagine where the coal industry would be without coal preparation.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>There are a lot of bad fuels out there, such as coconut dust, that need to be prepared.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal>Paul<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:44 PM, mtrevor <<a href="mailto:mtrevor@ntamar.net" target="_blank">mtrevor@ntamar.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Dear Paul </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>If you start making this unit please advise.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Thank you</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Michael N Trevor</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Majuro </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Marshall islands</span> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>n</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>----- Original Message ----- </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:paul.olivier@esrla.com" target="_blank" title="paul.olivier@esrla.com">Paul Olivier</a> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank" title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking stoves</a> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sent:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Tuesday, June 11, 2013 6:54 PM</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Subject:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>In my previous email I concluded by saying:<br><i>What's needed above all else, in my opinion, are small, beautiful TLUD's that make use of pellets. Such units could be situated in modern kitchens throughout the world. Once these units are in place, the rest will follow.</i><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><br>It seems that Home Depot, Wal-mart, Lowes, Ace, Agway and many others large retailers in the USA all carry wood pellets. Why can we not make TLUDs that make use of these pellets as fuel? The only thing that changes is the height of the reactor: it's much less than the height of a reactor that uses undensified biomass. This means that the TLUD is small, lightweight, mobile and much cheaper.<br><br>Here is an example of what I am talking about:<br><a href="https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Short/DrawingsUltra/001.pdf" target="_blank">https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Short/DrawingsUltra/001.pdf</a><br>The total height of the reactor is less than 10 inches.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>This reactor holds about 2 kgs of pellets.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>This gives a burn time of about one and a half hours.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>The reactor itself in 304 stainless steel weighs less than 1.5 kgs.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>We've already tested taller TLUDs on rice hull pellets,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> and they emit the same beautiful blue flame as when loose rice hulls are used.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Another big advantage of pellets is that there is much less particulate matter emissions compared to loose rice hulls.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Loose rice hulls are dusty, messy, bulky and a real nuisance to store and load.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>In an urban setting it makes no sense to be hauling in loose rice hulls of a bulk density of only 80 kg/m3.<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal>If we're going to compete with fossil fuel gas, we've must reach a certain level of convenience and ease of use.<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Thanks.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Paul<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 6:11 AM, Paul Olivier <<a href="mailto:paul.olivier@esrla.com" target="_blank">paul.olivier@esrla.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>See comments below.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 7:01 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com" target="_blank">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Dear Paul O<br><br>The reason is economics.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>In may cases transport distances are short, and the economics are quite good, and yet we complacently continue to burn fossil fuels. I lived for over 20 years in West Flanders in Belgium where wheat fields encroached upon densely populated rural areas, and yet everyone merrily burned LPG gas to cook a meal. Later I move to Waxahachie, Texas, a small town near Dallas, and once again, wheat fields were everywhere. Yet no one dreamed of making wheat husk or wheat straw pellets and using them to make syngas to cook a meal.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><br>China is showing at the moment that the maximum radius that is viable to transport pellets/briquettes is 150 km.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>China appears to be struggling with a lack of infrastructure in getting pellets to market. How does one explain the economics of shipping coffee husk pellets from Brazil to Holland as we see in this link? <a href="http://www.coffeehabitat.com/2007/10/coffee-husks-as/" target="_blank">http://www.coffeehabitat.com/2007/10/coffee-husks-as/</a> This is a thoroughly bold undertaking, but does it make sense to transport coffee husk pellets half way around the world to provide fuel for Dutch power stations? Why not make use of these pellets in Brazil? Also, one might argue that the highest and best use of coffee husk pellets would be, not to burn them in huge power stations, but to generate from them a syngas that would replace bottled gas or other forms of fossil fuel gas. The biochar left over from these stoves would then be returned to the soil.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><br>$76 a ton is cheap by Canadian standards but far higher than the price of coal per delivered MJ.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Not always so. Vietnamese coal coming from the north costs more per delivered MJ than rice hulls pellets. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>In Vietnam there is a huge multi-billion dollar infrastructure that underlies the mining, preparation and transportation of coal.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>This infrastructure does not yet exist for waste biomass pellets.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><br>Agri-waste pellets are a nice fuel provided they have been prepared properly.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>The same applies to coal and all other fossil fuels.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Coal preparation is a gigantic and complex undertaking.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br> <o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><br>If the value of char is 'always there' it is quite possible the economic equation will change with the introduction of gasifiers, however the same energy production rate will increase the demand for transport and raw husk supply.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Yes, you are right. The introduction of pellet gasifiers in a given area will create a demand for pellets, and the demand for pellets will stimulate the construction of the infrastructure needed to meet this demand.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><br>You know all this. How about giving us an equation or spreadsheet that includes the whole value chain?<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><br>Stovers could plug in their local costs and make a comparison between options. In at least <i>some </i>circumstances the gasification route would be the most viable.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Instead of using the word "some". I would prefer to say "many".<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><br>The UK buys wood pellets from Canada to burn in power stations, but that is subsidized by pensions grannies and the working poor.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Once again, why haul pellets from Canada to the UK? Does the UK not have an abundance of agricultural waste? And once again, should we not focus more on producing syngas from pellets and directly using this syngas to cook a meal? Burning pellets to make electricity is surely not the wisest way to proceed, especially if this electricity is used as a source of energy to cook a meal. Why not bypass the power station altogether?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>What's needed above all else, in my opinion, are small, beautiful TLUD's that make use of pellets. Such units could be situated in modern kitchens throughout the world. Once these units are in place, the rest will follow.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><br>Regards<br>Crispin<br>>From BB9900<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Paul Olivier <<a href="mailto:paul.olivier@esrla.com" target="_blank">paul.olivier@esrla.com</a>><br>Sender: "Stoves" <<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 15:19:20<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br> <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>Subject: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br clear=all><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><br>-- <br>Paul A. Olivier PhD<br>26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong<br>Dalat<br>Vietnam<br><br>Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)<br>Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)<br>Skype address: Xpolivier<br><a href="http://www.esrla.com/" target="_blank">http://www.esrla.com/</a> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br clear=all><br>-- <br>Paul A. Olivier PhD<br>26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong<br>Dalat<br>Vietnam<br><br>Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)<br>Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)<br>Skype address: Xpolivier<br><a href="http://www.esrla.com/" target="_blank">http://www.esrla.com/</a> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=3 width="100%" align=center></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=3 width="100%" align=center></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>No virus found in this message.<br>Checked by AVG - <a href="http://www.avg.com" target="_blank">www.avg.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal>Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6400 - Release Date: 06/10/13 <o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br><br><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br clear=all><br>-- <br>Paul A. Olivier PhD<br>26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong<br>Dalat<br>Vietnam<br><br>Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)<br>Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)<br>Skype address: Xpolivier<br><a href="http://www.esrla.com/" target="_blank">http://www.esrla.com/</a> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=3 width="100%" align=center></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><o:p></o:p></p><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=3 width="100%" align=center></div><p>No virus found in this message.<br>Checked by AVG - <a href="http://www.avg.com" target="_blank">www.avg.com</a><br>Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6400 - Release Date: 06/10/13<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Stoves mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><hr size=3 width="100%" align=center></span></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><hr size=3 width="100%" align=center></span></div><p>No virus found in this message.<br>Checked by AVG - <a href="http://www.avg.com" target="_blank">www.avg.com</a><br>Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6400 - Release Date: 06/10/13<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></body></html>