<div dir="ltr">See comments below.<br><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 8:05 AM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial">Paul (cc Alex)<br><br> This is to respond to your question:<div class="im">
<br> <b><i> Do you have any other other alternative to the use of fossil fuels?<br></i><br></b></div>Here are three alternatives, from my perspective:<br> a. Continued growth of the electrical system. Electricity is a great way to cook. As we decide to get off fossil-fueled electricity, biomass will be used for backup to wind and solar. As we realize the need to get back to 350 ppm CO2, then the best biomass option is with biochar - Backup with CHP in 10 -20 MW scale, not the GW scale assumed for BECCS.<br>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I agree fully. If electricity is produced without making use of fossil fuels or nuclear energy, then this makes sense.<br> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial"> b. Natural gas for cooking will be replaced slowly by pyrolysis gas (and electricity). City gas (from biomass) came before natural gas.<br></div></div></blockquote>
<div><br></div><div>Yes, this is the option that I am focusing on: syngas replacing fossil fuel gas. This is a simple and inexpensive option that we can control and execute,<br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial"> c. Liquid fuels can also come from pyrolysis with char co-product when we decide we need to get to 350 ppm. Cooking can be that way as well.<br></div></div></blockquote>
<div><br></div><div>Yes, we can produce methanol and ethanol from syngas, and these liquid fuels can be used for cooking. I am working with a large company that sells steel mills. We want to chip invasive plants, dry them thermophilically down to 23% moisture under a compost fleece, dry them further in large silo's, and pyrolyze/gasify them in the same silos to make syngas, make methanol from the syngas, and sell biochar as a soil amendment. Imagine the huge amount of mesquite, Chinese Tallow and Juniper available just in the state of Texas.<br>
</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial"> <br> Half the world can still rely on TLUD designs for cooking. Not for most on this list, including Alex and I, because we can afford to keep what we now use. </div>
</div></blockquote><div><br><br></div><div>Keep what you are using, but use much less of these conventional devices. I think that there is definitely a place for small TLUDs running on pellets in modern kitchens. I have heard this argument many times: <i>I can afford fossil fuels so what's the big deal</i>? Our affluence should not provide us an excuse to burn fossil fuels.<br>
</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial">But for half the world, a TLUD could be the cheapest - and so you need to keep developing your type. That's a big market. One caution - solar cooking for some meals will creep in - because it will be the cheapest.<br>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes, but solar cookers are not reliable each and every day.<br><br></div><div>Thanks.<br></div><div>Paul Olivier<br></div><div> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial"><br> Note that all four approaches involve char-making - since I assume an eventual recognition both that all fossil fuels must go and also that we need 350 or lower. <br>
<br> No doubt Alex agrees with all this. Your reaction?<br><br>Ron<br><br><hr><b>From: </b>"Paul Olivier" <<a href="mailto:paul.olivier@esrla.com" target="_blank">paul.olivier@esrla.com</a>><div class="im">
<br><b>To: </b>"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br></div><b>Sent: </b>Wednesday, June 12, 2013 5:28:57 PM<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] wheat husk pellets<div><div class="h5"><br><br><div dir="ltr"><div>Alex,<br><br></div>You say: <i>Visions of pyrolysis stoves in the kitchens of North America are borderline male fantasy. </i>Be realistic. Do you have any other other alternative to the use of fossil fuels? Such a double standard: we use fossil fuels to cook our meals and we expect poor people to use biomass fuels.<br>
<div class="gmail_extra">Yes, you can start with the patio and then later move indoors as you acquire more skill in operating the unit. Also, at this early stage in the evolution of the technology, I would not recommend doing away with your gas stove. Leave it there, but try to use your biomass stove as much as possible.<br>
</div><div class="gmail_extra">Pellets are available at so many retail outlets in the USA, and they are so easy to handle. I think that there are many households along the West coast who would be happy to break away from the stranglehold of Big Oil.<br>
</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">In my kitchen I have not yet set up a hood and fan. So I will operate the pellet gasifier in my living room on a small coffee table. All that I have to do is to open up the two big windows in the living room. The problem that I have had all along was dealing with loose rice hulls. I have no place to store a large sack of rice hulls in my house, and I dislike having to load them into the reactor: they are so dusty and dirty. With pellets this problem is solved.<br>
<br></div><div class="gmail_extra">Thanks.<br></div><div class="gmail_extra">Paul<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 8:20 PM, Alex English <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:english@kingston.net" target="_blank">english@kingston.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">All Pauls and all,<br>
<br>
Interesting subject title. Having grown,combined,ground,sifted wheat and burned wheat 'berries" and wheat short blended pellets at times over the past 35 years, this is the first time I have heard the term 'wheat husk'. My failure to separate husk from chaff.<br>
<br>
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheat_middlings" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/<u></u>Wheat_middlings</a><br>
<br>
We can buy into energy conspiracies but they only go so far. Having watched greenhouse boiler fuel gyrations during energy price spikes, I can pull my head out of the oven and tell you that cleaning and maintaining a 'natural' gas fired boiler is as close to the 'aspirational' desk job as a farmer gets. A boiler fired with oat-hull/wheat-short blended pellets is continueally coated with sticky ash. It all makes work for the working-man to do, or avoid doing. Opposite ends of a fuel spectrum with labor and equipment costs playing a huge role in the decision. Where is that spreadsheet?<br>
<br>
There are quite a few pellet mills experiments around and most are having significant difficulties with ag residues and energy crops. Youtube videos only go so far, but its early days, or decades.<br>
<br>
<br>
Visions of pyrolysis stoves in the kitchens of North America are borderline male fantasy. Try the patio dadios first. That will be a tough enough sell. Not enough smoke flavor.<br>
<br>
A man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's pyrolysis for?<br>
<br>
"That's nice, now take it outside dear, I have a meal to prepare, and also the insurance company said no" :)<br>
<br>
<br>
But your rice hull stove still seems like a pretty good niche. At least from a distance.<br>
<br>
Alex in Wonderfulland.<br>
A practitioner of the combustion arts and letters.<div><br>
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On 11/06/2013 10:37 PM, Paul Olivier wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Yes, Otto, you are right.<br>
<br>
Big Oil receives subsides from the US government. Its lobbying effort is colossal. It has succeeded in convincing most of us that it has all the answers. The infrastructure it has set up is vigilantly supported by the US military. In our design of stoves, we should do everything we can to make sure that we are not taken in by their lies. As Shell Oil, says in an advertisement: "We at Shell believe that the world should have a broader mix of energies". And then they point to natural gas.<br>
<br>
Paul Olivier<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
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