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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Rebecca,<br>
<br>
To make your oling (coconut shell charcoal), the TLUD technology
is highly appropriate. The density of the shell pieces makes
them slightly difficult to initially light (the same as with
densified wood pellets). But just make a slightly larger and
longer burning "starter fire" to get the initial layer of
pyrolyzing biomass that becomes the pyrolytic front that migrates
slowly down through the column of shell pieces.<br>
<br>
How familiar are you with the TLUD technology?<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
On 6/15/2013 12:48 AM, Rebecca A. Vermeer wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:B62FC8A13BAA430E939760624F62E439@RebeccaHP"
type="cite">
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<div style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR:
#000000">
<div>Michael,</div>
<div>I am so pleased to meet an ex copra maker and one who
knows the coconut so well!! So I presume you know very
well the native “tuba” drink from the flower shoot? Do take
a look at my photo album below :</div>
<div> </div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT:
13pt"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://plus.google.com/photos/113101643783889350444/albums/5889511496280160113/5889528293743607618?pid=5889528293743607618&oid=113101643783889350444"><font
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt" color="#0000ff">https://plus.google.com/photos/113101643783889350444/albums/5889511496280160113/5889528293743607618?pid=5889528293743607618&oid=113101643783889350444</font></a></p>
<div>– you will see the coconut husk (bucong) strung
together; your preferred frond mid ribs (palwa) and the
charcoal from coconut shells (inside sacks and plastic
bags). The charcoal makers are my biggest competitors for
the bucong I need to fire my eco-kalans. Take a close look
at photo #37 -the small pottery to the right which looks
like a vase uses “oling” or coconut shell charcoal; to the
left you will find the big traditional kalans which can use
firewood, “palwa” or “bucong”. The “bucong” is the fuel of
the poorest and the “bingka” or rice cake bakers; the
“palwa” is bought by the not so poor; firewood by the
middleclass; and the “oling “ is bought by the many food
vendors (like “tocinos” – similar to sate in Malaysia or
Indonesia, steamed meat buns, boiling water for disinfecting
spoons & forks....) and households for broiling fish and
meats (sinugba).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Oling is made by burning coconut shellls in a hole in the
ground –a smoky process with a lot of energy going to
waste. Do you know a better way??</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Rebecca </div>
<div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<div style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<div style="font-color: black"><b>From:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" title="mtrevor@ntamar.net"
href="mailto:mtrevor@ntamar.net">mtrevor</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 14, 2013 12:31 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion
of biomass cooking stoves</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> [Stoves] coconut usage in improved
stoves</div>
</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri';
FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal;
TEXT-DECORATION: none; DISPLAY: inline">
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Dear <font size="3"
face="Times New Roman">Rebecca </font></font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">As an ex copra maker I have
met the coconut and know it well.</font></div>
<div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">I have made copra by the
tons. <font size="2" face="Arial">I know coconut husk
and flower shoot and fronds and shell </font>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Here the husks are
generally burned in 3/4/5 wedge sized pieces.
After the nuts are husked
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">women haul them
in from the husking areas and sun dry them in
the yards. It is exhausting back breaking work</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Husk is a pretty
good mosquito chaser and its low burn
temperature make it very good for cooking
rice.</font></div>
<div>BUT THE SMOKE!!!!</div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">I would like to
see a retort system running heat to a copra
drier to produce better copra with out bugs
and mold</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">with </font><font
size="2" face="Arial">coconut shell charcoal
for sale as a by product.
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">In more
recent years the has been some switch to
your "bucong" of course this mean no more
shell left over. </font> </div>
</font><font size="2" face="Arial">Splitting
husk with shell in to multiple little wedges
would </font><font size="2" face="Arial">be
considered a lot of additional work. Coconut
husk it tough stuff. </font><font size="2"
face="Arial">I find slicing off the leaflets
in the field and </font><font size="2"
face="Arial">using the coconut frond mid rib
chopped into segments and split length wise </font><font
size="2" face="Arial">easier. The resulting
stick like </font><font size="2" face="Arial">pieces
feed into a rocket stove easier. The f</font><font
size="2" face="Arial">lower spaths are superb
rocket stove fuel.</font></div>
</font> </div>
<div> </div>
</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Michael</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Marshall Islands</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div>----- Original Message ----- </div>
</div>
<blockquote style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px;
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" dir="ltr">
<div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial;
font-color: black"><b>From:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" title="ravermeer@telus.net"
href="mailto:ravermeer@telus.net">Rebecca A. Vermeer</a>
</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> ; <a
moz-do-not-send="true" title="mtrevor@ntamar.net"
href="mailto:mtrevor@ntamar.net">Michael N. Trevor</a>
</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Cc:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" title="ravermeer@telus.net"
href="mailto:ravermeer@telus.net">Rebecca A. Vermeer</a>
; <a moz-do-not-send="true" title="jonnygms@gmail.com"
href="mailto:jonnygms@gmail.com">Jon Anderson</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, June
15, 2013 6:30 AM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves]
: Re: Insulation and stove life</div>
<div> </div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri';
COLOR: #000000">
<div>Hello Michael,</div>
<div>Thank you for your suggestions and question. My
comments are as follows:</div>
<div>1. I have considered experimenting with high
silicate ash from the foot of Mt. Canlaon, in
northern part of Negros Oriental. The ash is free
and my partners with the 11th IB of the Philippine
Army in Negros Or. and the Memorial Elementary
School in Canlaon would bring the ash to Dumaguete
City. If this does not work, I’ll follow up on the
TLUD route.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>2. Jon & Flip Anderson (Aprovecho
volunteers) have shown me their work with insulating
bricks to form the combustion chamber in Timor
Leste. The insulating bricks are weak, fragile
bricks which require a strong, heavy duty shell
exterior (e.g. cement)to protect the combustion
chamber and to support big cooking pots. I still
think that tiny insulating “clay marbles” between
the heavy duty, all clay, fired kalan and combustion
chamber is the most practical way to pursue. I am
hopeful Rolf and ECOWORXX can find a way to produce
these insulating clay marbles or pebbles cheaply.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>3. For those who have not seen a coconut husk –
it is a by-product of COPRA (mature coconut meat)
production. Every 3 months, the coconuts are
harvested, cut into 2 halves, and meat is extracted
and dried to make copra. The husk and inside shell
is dried in roof-covered sheds or storage buildings
to make “bucong” – the fuel we use to fire the
eco-kalans to 900 degrees Celsius. To use the
“bucong” or coconut husk with shell for fuel in a
rocket stove, it is requires chopping the husk with
a machete into narrow wedges (like a cantaloupe) and
a combustion chamber opening as wide and as high
(5.5”x5.5”) as that of the eco-kalan.</div>
<div> </div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri';
FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE:
normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none; DISPLAY: inline">
<div style="FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<div><font size="3" face="Calibri">Rebecca Vermeer</font></div>
<div><font size="3" face="Calibri">Eco-Kalan
Project in the Philippines</font></div>
<div><font size="3" face="Calibri">British
Columbia, Canada</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<div style="font-color: black"><b>From:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="mtrevor@ntamar.net"
href="mailto:mtrevor@ntamar.net">mtrevor</a>
</div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 14, 2013 1:44 AM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion
of biomass cooking stoves</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] : Re:
Insulation and stove life</div>
</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri';
FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE:
normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none; DISPLAY: inline">
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Rebecca </font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Why not gassify
rice hulls in a TLUD and then use the low
cristobalite "tough" high silicate ash to mix
your insulation. </font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Perhaps take a lead
fom Aprovecho's play book and fire your liner in
multiple wedge shaped pieces negating the need
to break</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">things up. </font></div>
<div> </div>
<div>How do to "prepare" your coconut husks for use
in a rocket stove? </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Michael N Trevor</div>
<div>Marshall Islands</div>
<blockquote style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT:
5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid;
PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" dir="ltr">
<div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial;
font-color: black"><b>From:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="ravermeer@telus.net"
href="mailto:ravermeer@telus.net">Rebecca A.
Vermeer</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="paul.olivier@esrla.com"
href="mailto:paul.olivier@esrla.com">Paul
Olivier</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Cc:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="jonnygms@gmail.com"
href="mailto:jonnygms@gmail.com">Jon Anderson</a>
; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Friday,
June 14, 2013 8:25 PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re:
[Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life</div>
<div> </div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000">
<div>Paul,</div>
<div>I currently use wood ash as insulating
material between the kalan and combustion
chamber of the eco-kalan (a rocket stove
using wood, charcoal, coconut husk, shell,
fronds and other parts of the coconut
tree). The eco-kalan uses 75-85% less
firewood and therefore a lot less ash is
produced compared to traditional kalans and
other traditional cookstoves in Negros
Oriental, Philippines. A shortage in
supply of ash is one fact
<div> </div>
or which affects sales of eco-kalan. I
have considered making an insulating
material using a 50-50 mix by volume of
rice hull & clay in the form of pellets
or bricks which would be broken to pieces
after firing. I would fire the pellets or
the bricks along with the eco-kalans up to
900 degrees Celsius. Will there be
significant formation of cristobalite under
these conditions? Would handling the fired
pellets or the breaking of the bricks be a
health hazard? Thanks,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Rebecca Vermeer</div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri'; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR:
#000000; FONT-STYLE: normal;
TEXT-DECORATION: none; DISPLAY: inline">
<div style="FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<div> </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<div style="font-color: black"><b>From:</b>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="paul.olivier@esrla.com"
href="mailto:paul.olivier@esrla.com">Paul
Olivier</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 14, 2013
12:07 AM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="ravermeer@telus.net"
href="mailto:ravermeer@telus.net">Rebecca
A. Vermeer</a> </div>
<div><b>Cc:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="jonnygms@gmail.com"
href="mailto:jonnygms@gmail.com">Jon
Anderson</a> ; <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="larryw@gotsky.com"
href="mailto:larryw@gotsky.com">larry
winiarski</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: Fw: [Stoves] :
Re: Insulation and stove life</div>
</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri'; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR:
#000000; FONT-STYLE: normal;
TEXT-DECORATION: none; DISPLAY: inline">
<p>Rebecca,</p>
<p>If we directly burn river hulls, there
should be a lot of cristobalite formed. If
we gasify, this problem should be
minimized, provided channeling does not
occur. Also there might be cristobalite in
the particulate matter in the combustion
gases. With rice hull pellets in a TLUD
we have a lot less channeling, and a lot
less particulate matter. Therefore the
rice hull pellet becomes an attractive
fuel for these and many other reasons.</p>
<p>Thanks.<br>
Paul Olivier</p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Jun 14, 2013
1:44 PM, "Rebecca A. Vermeer" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ravermeer@telus.net">ravermeer@telus.net</a>>
wrote:<br type="attribution">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px
0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px
solid">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'">
<div>Hello Paul,</div>
<div>Larry just told me that the
silica content of rice hull ash
is over 90%. At the ETHOS 2013
Conference, I saw a TURBO stove
developed in the Philippines
which used rice hull for fuel.
Given your comment below
regarding cristobalite “which is
a nasty carcinogen” and severely
hazardous to human health (see
link below), would you recommend
the use of rice hull as a
household fuel for cookstoves? </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Rebecca Vermeer</div>
<div> </div>
<div>CRISTOBALITE LINK:</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="http://nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/1657.pdf"
href="http://nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/1657.pdf"
target="_blank">http://nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/1657.pdf</a></div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: small;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri';
FONT-WEIGHT: normal;
FONT-STYLE: normal;
TEXT-DECORATION: none;
DISPLAY: inline"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: small;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri';
FONT-WEIGHT: normal;
FONT-STYLE: normal;
TEXT-DECORATION: none;
DISPLAY: inline"><b>From:</b>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="paul.olivier@esrla.com"
href="mailto:paul.olivier@esrla.com" target="_blank">Paul Olivier</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<div style="BACKGROUND:
#f5f5f5">
<div><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday,
June 12, 2013 12:01 AM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Discussion
of biomass cooking
stoves</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re:
[Stoves] : Re: Insulation
and stove life</div>
</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: small;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri';
FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-STYLE:
normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none;
DISPLAY: inline">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>Paal,<br>
<br>
</div>
One thing I look for on
my burner is that all
burner holes support a
flame throughout the
process. If channeling
occurs during the
process or if char is
being burned as the
process comes to a
close, then one can see
burner holes that do not
support a flame. This
means that CO2 is being
discharged from the
burner holes, and of
course CO2 does not
burn. When CO2 is
formed, this represents
a big inefficiency,
since combustion takes
place far below the pot.
When this happens the
sides of the reactor can
easily turn red hot and
melt. I do not know how
it is possible to spot
the presence of CO2 if
the top of the reactor
stays open and does not
have a lid with burner
holes.<br>
<br>
</div>
If one turns up the fan a
bit too high resulting in
channeling, it can happen
that only a few holes
(among a total of 80 in my
case) do not support a
flame. If I turn the fan
down a bit and shake the
reactor, this problem is
immediately corrected.
Also the effect of the
presence of CO2 can be
spotted by the cook in
another way. The
distribution of heat to
the pan is not even.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>Also many of the
positive characteristics
of biochar are lost when
biochar is combusted and
is reduced to ash. The
combustion of biomass and
biochar takes place when
channeling occurs, and the
combustion of biochar
takes place if the fan is
not turned off at the end
of the process. Rice hull
ash and rice hill biochar
are not at all the same
thing when it comes to
growing plants. <font
color="#ff0000">Also
rice hull ash can easily
contain cristobalite,
which is a nasty
carcinogen. Under
ordinary conditions, no
farmer should be
handling this stuff.<br>
</font></div>
<div> </div>
Thanks.<br>
</div>
Paul<br>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On
Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 1:06
PM, Paal Wendelbo <span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:paaw@online.no" target="_blank">paaw@online.no</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="PADDING-LEFT:
1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px
0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc
1px solid">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div
style="FONT-SIZE:
12pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri'">
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="MARGIN:
0cm 0cm 10pt;
LINE-HEIGHT:
13pt"><span
lang="EN-US"><font
style="FONT-SIZE:
11pt">Ron</font></span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="MARGIN:
0cm 0cm 10pt;
LINE-HEIGHT:
13pt"><span
lang="EN-US"><font
style="FONT-SIZE:
11pt">By end
of flame the
color of the
char is red to
yellow, that
indicate a
temperature of
700 to 800 ˚C
and when there
is no smoke,
complete
combustion has
taken place.
Is that not
good for
biochar?</font></span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="MARGIN:
0cm 0cm 10pt;
LINE-HEIGHT:
13pt"><span
lang="EN-US"><font
style="FONT-SIZE:
11pt">Regards
Paal W</font></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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Paul A. Olivier PhD<br>
26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong<br>
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<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a>
</pre>
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