<html><head><style type='text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><div style='font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'>Piet: cc List<br><br>1. The last line of the entry 3 shows how to reach Dr. ShivaKumar. I have a short message from him and he will be joining the conversation. No need to write him outside the list.<br><br>2. Piet is one of the first members of this list - retired in Australia after stove career (I think) mainly in Holland.<br><br>3. The full citation was given on the 26th by Julien Winter as follows:<br><br>Hi Stovers;<br><br>I have been looking for a comprehensive review on TLUD stove<br>operation, and I think I have found it.<br><br>Has anyone read Varun Shivakumar's Ph.D. Thesis, "Packed bed<br>gasification-combustion in biomass based domestic stoves and<br>combustion systems"?<br><br>This thesis explains a lot of the basic theory, and reviews much of<br>the important literature.<br><br>It can be found at:<br><span class="Object" id="OBJ_PREFIX_DWT58"><a target="_blank" href="http://cgpl.iisc.ernet.in/site/Portals/0/Publications/varun_thesis.pdf">http://cgpl.iisc.ernet.in/site/Portals/0/Publications/varun_thesis.pdf</a></span><br><br>I suggest you use download assistant software to get it, because<br>following the link from a browser can be a bit dodgy.<br><br>Or, you could try contacting him directly: <span class="Object" id="OBJ_PREFIX_DWT59"><span class="Object" id="OBJ_PREFIX_DWT60"><a target="_blank" href="http://www.iitrpr.ac.in/smmee/varun">http://www.iitrpr.ac.in/smmee/varun</a></span></span><br><br><br><br><hr id="zwchr"><b>From: </b>pietverhaart@bigpond.com<br><b>To: </b>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br><b>Sent: </b>Friday, June 28, 2013 1:40:54 AM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] Ph.D. Thesis on TLUD Stoves.<br><br><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">One of the best kept secrets seems to be the author and title of this much discussed thesis. Can anyone enlighten me?</div><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br></div><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Peter </div> <p style="font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.</p> <table style="background-color:white;border-spacing:0px;" width="100%"> <tbody><tr><td colspan="2" style="font-size: initial; text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"> <div id="_persistentHeader" style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in; font-family: Tahoma, 'BB Alpha Sans', 'Slate Pro'; font-size: 10pt;"> <div><b>From: </b>rongretlarson@comcast.net</div><div><b>Sent: </b>Friday, 28 June 2013 06:51 PM</div><div><b>To: </b>Discussion of biomass cooking stoves</div><div><b>Reply To: </b>Discussion of biomass cooking stoves</div><div><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] Ph.D. Thesis on TLUD Stoves.</div></div></td></tr></tbody></table><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(186, 188, 209); border-top-width: 1pt; font-size: initial; text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"></div><br><div id="_originalContent" style=""><style>p { margin: 0; }</style><div style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000">Paul etal:<br><br> I should have added there are some good discussions of the same stove/cylinder (glass) with numerous types of fuels. And he shows they obey the same laws - can predict performance (front velocity, power level (?) - given the superficial velocty.)<br><br>Ron<br><br><hr id="zwchr"><b>From: </b>rongretlarson@comcast.net<br><b>To: </b>"Paul Anderson" <psanders@ilstu.edu><br><b>Cc: </b>"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><br><b>Sent: </b>Thursday, June 27, 2013 2:44:07 PM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] Ph.D. Thesis on TLUD Stoves.<br><br><style>p { margin: 0; }</style><div style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000">Paul:<br><br> I know very little on the Oorja stove. But the thesis is mostly (entirely?) on a packed bed, top lit. It is on the migratory pyrolytic front (MPF) - so should be applicable to all TLUDs. I would like to hear from any/all on whether I am getting the right reading about NOT consuming the char.<br><br>Ron<br><br><hr id="zwchr"><b>From: </b>"Paul Anderson" <psanders@ilstu.edu><br><b>To: </b>"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><br><b>Cc: </b>rongretlarson@comcast.net<br><b>Sent: </b>Thursday, June 27, 2013 2:12:57 PM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] Ph.D. Thesis on TLUD Stoves.<br><br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Ron,<br>
<br>
I am in Uganda now and have not had a chance to see the thesis.
Thank you for the comments.<br>
<br>
About #3, the Oorja stove is rather heavy for turning over, has a
smallish fuel chamber meaning not much char and only short TLUD
burns, and has a loose cast iron cup in the bottom that would fall
out if the unit is tipped over to remove the char. It is
designed to NOT be tipped over for saving char. <br>
<br>
It is intentionally designed to have continuous burning with the
fire in the bottom consuming char. And when doing that, the
Oorja is NOT operating in the TLUD mode which is specifically
characterized by the migratory pyrolytic front (MPF), but the
Oorja is not with MPF after the rather small initial load of fuel
has been pyrolyzed. <br>
<br>
Therefore, the Oorja (and most others with forced air FA)
essentially is NOT a TLUD because it is operated without the MPF
except for the initial batch of fuel.<br>
<br>
I will be addressing this topic more at the Stove Camp at
Aprovecho on 22 - 26 July.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<pre class="moz-signature">Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
On 6/27/2013 2:43 PM, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:381415093.665753.1372362222069.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net">
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<div style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000">Julien
and list<br>
<br>
1. Thanks very much for providing this cite. I have read most
and find it to be a well done thesis. I wish we had more like
it.<br>
<br>
2. The concepts of char and TLUDs are in here thoroughly. But
nothing on the idea of a stove designed to make char. All char
is presumed and desired to be consumed. <br>
<br>
3. My conclusion (would like to hear more) is that a good case
is made (not intentionally) for NOT consuming the produced char
in a TLUD (this one fan-powered and widely sold in India as the
"Oorja" (started by BP)). Very little gain in overall
efficiency as the char is consumed.<br>
<br>
4. A major advance was his study of the importance of ash in
this "char" period as a poor radiator - thereby responsible for
(undesired) high char temperatures.<br>
<br>
5. Most everything shown as a function of superficial velocity
(Vs) - with 16-17 cm/sec shown as key dividing point in stove
behavior.. Above which velocity one swtches from char
production to char consumption. I have not seen this before.<br>
<br>
For his highly automated fan system, measuring Vs was
apparently not so difficult. Anyone able to give a way to get
an easy estimate of Vs, when there is only natural draft?<br>
<br>
6. Quite a bit on the importance of low emissions of CO.<br>
<br>
7. Good information on both the experimental and computational
side of top-lit (packed bed) stoves. Not much here for rocket
stoves.<br>
<br>
Have I got #3 right?<br>
<br>
Ron<br>
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