<div dir="ltr"><div><div>See: <br><a href="http://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=1175">http://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=1175</a><br><a href="http://www.bssa.org.uk/topics.php?article=103">http://www.bssa.org.uk/topics.php?article=103</a><br>
</div>Thanks.<br></div>Paul Olivier<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 8:49 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com" target="_blank">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">About 350 C<br>
<br>
Crispin<br>
>From BB9900<br>
<div class="im HOEnZb"><br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Alex English <<a href="mailto:english@kingston.net">english@kingston.net</a>><br>
Sender: "Stoves" <<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2013 21:35:14<br>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
<<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
</div><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5">Subject: Re: [Stoves] Ph.D. Thesis on TLUD Stoves.<br>
<br>
<br>
What do you think the maximum service temperature of SS 304 is in a<br>
stove environment?<br>
<br>
Alex<br>
<br>
On 30/06/2013 9:22 PM, M. Nurhuda wrote:<br>
> Paul and all,<br>
><br>
> I agree with you. The char combustion is very dangerous to the plat<br>
> material of burning chamber. My experiences, the combustion chamber will<br>
> be damaged within 2-3 months if it is long exposed in a strong char<br>
> combustion mode, even the plat material is SS 304.<br>
><br>
> Moreover, to be wise is a better way to conserve nature. The soil has<br>
> right to get biochar in term of combustion residue to maintain the soil<br>
> fertility. This, not only good for soil, but also for CO2 reduction.<br>
><br>
> Regards<br>
> M. Nurhuda<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>> Varun,<br>
>><br>
>> You say that with the Oorja, 70% of the total energy is delivered in<br>
>> flaming mode and 30% in char mode. But would this not apply to all TLUDs?<br>
>> In my case, if I leave the fan on after the flaming mode is finished, a<br>
>> char mode begins. As the char is combusted, the temperature within the<br>
>> unit<br>
>> climbs incredibly (dangerously) high.<br>
>><br>
>> This leads me to ask: why consume the char? Why not stop the process when<br>
>> the flaming mode comes to an end? There is an inefficiency that kicks in<br>
>> when char is consumed, since this takes place at a considerable distance<br>
>> from the pot.<br>
>><br>
>> Thanks.<br>
>> Paul Olivier<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 8:28 AM, Varun ShivaKumar<br>
>> <<a href="mailto:varun@cgpl.iisc.ernet.in">varun@cgpl.iisc.ernet.in</a>>wrote:<br>
>><br>
>>> Dear Paul,<br>
>>><br>
>>> Oorja is exactly TLUD. 70% of the total energy is delivered in flaming<br>
>>> mode which involves migratory pyrolysis front (or flame front as<br>
>>> discussed<br>
>>> in chapter 5). Only 30% energy in the left over char is delivered in the<br>
>>> char mode in the manner described by you. You are correct in saying that<br>
>>> it<br>
>>> is not TLUD in this char mode (in fact it is co-current in char mode as<br>
>>> opposed to counter-current in flaming mode) . But in flaming mode it is<br>
>>> exactly TLUD. I kindly request you to take this into account when you<br>
>>> discuss this at Aprovecho.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Varun<br>
>>> ------------------------------<br>
>>> *From:* Stoves [<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>] on behalf of<br>
>>> <a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a> [<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>]<br>
>>> *Sent:* Sunday, June 30, 2013 3:17 AM<br>
>>> *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves; Paal Wendelbo<br>
>>><br>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] Ph.D. Thesis on TLUD Stoves.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Paal and list.<br>
>>><br>
>>> The thesis was inspired by the Oorja, and helped to improve it,<br>
>>> but<br>
>>> the thesis itself is much more general. The word "Oorja" rarely<br>
>>> appears.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Does anyone know if there have been any Oorja test results reported<br>
>>> by<br>
>>> any of the major stove testing labs (Aprovecho, EPA, etc)?<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> Ron<br>
>>><br>
>>> ------------------------------<br>
>>> *From: *"Paal Wendelbo" <<a href="mailto:paaw@online.no">paaw@online.no</a>><br>
>>> *To: *"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <<br>
>>> <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
>>> *Sent: *Saturday, June 29, 2013 1:18:21 PM<br>
>>> *Subject: *Re: [Stoves] Ph.D. Thesis on TLUD Stoves.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Ron and Paul O<br>
>>><br>
>>> Into the advertising leaflet of the Oorja stove is written “at end of<br>
>>> flame very little aches is left†and I have tested the stove and can<br>
>>> confirm it is right. I could see sparks up in the air above stove. The<br>
>>> grid<br>
>>> of cast iron 10 mm thick was white yellow about 900-1000ËšC and quite<br>
>>> dangerous to handle to take out some few char left.<br>
>>><br>
>>> With regards Paal W<br>
>>><br>
>>> *From:* <a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a><br>
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, June 27, 2013 10:51 PM<br>
>>> *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking<br>
>>> stoves<<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] Ph.D. Thesis on TLUD Stoves.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Paul etal:<br>
>>><br>
>>> I should have added there are some good discussions of the same<br>
>>> stove/cylinder (glass) with numerous types of fuels. And he shows they<br>
>>> obey the same laws - can predict performance (front velocity, power<br>
>>> level<br>
>>> (?) - given the superficial velocty.)<br>
>>><br>
>>> Ron<br>
>>><br>
>>> ------------------------------<br>
>>> *From: *<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a><br>
>>> *To: *"Paul Anderson" <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>><br>
>>> *Cc: *"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <<br>
>>> <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
>>> *Sent: *Thursday, June 27, 2013 2:44:07 PM<br>
>>> *Subject: *Re: [Stoves] Ph.D. Thesis on TLUD Stoves.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Paul:<br>
>>><br>
>>> I know very little on the Oorja stove. But the thesis is mostly<br>
>>> (entirely?) on a packed bed, top lit. It is on the migratory pyrolytic<br>
>>> front (MPF) - so should be applicable to all TLUDs. I would like to<br>
>>> hear<br>
>>> from any/all on whether I am getting the right reading about NOT<br>
>>> consuming<br>
>>> the char.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Ron<br>
>>><br>
>>> ------------------------------<br>
>>> *From: *"Paul Anderson" <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>><br>
>>> *To: *"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <<br>
>>> <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
>>> *Cc: *<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a><br>
>>> *Sent: *Thursday, June 27, 2013 2:12:57 PM<br>
>>> *Subject: *Re: [Stoves] Ph.D. Thesis on TLUD Stoves.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Ron,<br>
>>><br>
>>> I am in Uganda now and have not had a chance to see the thesis. Thank<br>
>>> you for the comments.<br>
>>><br>
>>> About #3, the Oorja stove is rather heavy for turning over, has a<br>
>>> smallish<br>
>>> fuel chamber meaning not much char and only short TLUD burns, and has a<br>
>>> loose cast iron cup in the bottom that would fall out if the unit is<br>
>>> tipped<br>
>>> over to remove the char. It is designed to NOT be tipped over for<br>
>>> saving<br>
>>> char.<br>
>>><br>
>>> It is intentionally designed to have continuous burning with the fire in<br>
>>> the bottom consuming char. And when doing that, the Oorja is NOT<br>
>>> operating in the TLUD mode which is specifically characterized by the<br>
>>> migratory pyrolytic front (MPF), but the Oorja is not with MPF after the<br>
>>> rather small initial load of fuel has been pyrolyzed.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Therefore, the Oorja (and most others with forced air FA) essentially is<br>
>>> NOT a TLUD because it is operated without the MPF except for the initial<br>
>>> batch of fuel.<br>
>>><br>
>>> I will be addressing this topic more at the Stove Camp at Aprovecho on<br>
>>> 22<br>
>>> - 26 July.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Paul<br>
>>><br>
>>> Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"<br>
>>> Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072<br>
>>> Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> On 6/27/2013 2:43 PM, <a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a> wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>> Julien and list<br>
>>><br>
>>> 1. Thanks very much for providing this cite. I have read most and<br>
>>> find<br>
>>> it to be a well done thesis. I wish we had more like it.<br>
>>><br>
>>> 2. The concepts of char and TLUDs are in here thoroughly. But nothing<br>
>>> on<br>
>>> the idea of a stove designed to make char. All char is presumed and<br>
>>> desired to be consumed.<br>
>>><br>
>>> 3. My conclusion (would like to hear more) is that a good case is made<br>
>>> (not intentionally) for NOT consuming the produced char in a TLUD (this<br>
>>> one fan-powered and widely sold in India as the "Oorja" (started by<br>
>>> BP)).<br>
>>> Very little gain in overall efficiency as the char is consumed.<br>
>>><br>
>>> 4. A major advance was his study of the importance of ash in this<br>
>>> "char"<br>
>>> period as a poor radiator - thereby responsible for (undesired) high<br>
>>> char<br>
>>> temperatures.<br>
>>><br>
>>> 5. Most everything shown as a function of superficial velocity (Vs) -<br>
>>> with 16-17 cm/sec shown as key dividing point in stove behavior.. Above<br>
>>> which velocity one swtches from char production to char consumption. I<br>
>>> have not seen this before.<br>
>>><br>
>>> For his highly automated fan system, measuring Vs was apparently not<br>
>>> so difficult. Anyone able to give a way to get an easy estimate of Vs,<br>
>>> when there is only natural draft?<br>
>>><br>
>>> 6. Quite a bit on the importance of low emissions of CO.<br>
>>><br>
>>> 7. Good information on both the experimental and computational side of<br>
>>> top-lit (packed bed) stoves. Not much here for rocket stoves.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Have I got #3 right?<br>
>>><br>
>>> Ron<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>> Stoves mailing list<br>
>>><br>
>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email<br>
>>> <a href="mailto:addressstoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">addressstoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web<br>
>>> pagehttp://<a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web<br>
>>> site:<a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>> Stoves mailing list<br>
>>><br>
>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
>>> <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
>>><br>
>>> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>
>>> <a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> ------------------------------<br>
>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>> Stoves mailing list<br>
>>><br>
>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
>>> <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
>>><br>
>>> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>
>>> <a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>> Stoves mailing list<br>
>>><br>
>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
>>> <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
>>><br>
>>> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>
>>> <a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> --<br>
>>> This message has been scanned for viruses and<br>
>>> dangerous content by *MailScanner* <<a href="http://www.mailscanner.info/" target="_blank">http://www.mailscanner.info/</a>>, and<br>
>>> is<br>
>>> believed to be clean.<br>
>>><br>
>>> --<br>
>>> This message has been scanned for viruses and<br>
>>> dangerous content by *MailScanner* <<a href="http://www.mailscanner.info/" target="_blank">http://www.mailscanner.info/</a>>, and<br>
>>> is<br>
>>> believed to be clean.<br>
>>><br>
>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>> Stoves mailing list<br>
>>><br>
>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
>>> <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
>>><br>
>>> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>
>>> <a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
>> Paul A. Olivier PhD<br>
>> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong<br>
>> Dalat<br>
>> Vietnam<br>
>><br>
>> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)<br>
>> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)<br>
>> Skype address: Xpolivier<br>
>> <a href="http://www.esrla.com/" target="_blank">http://www.esrla.com/</a><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> Stoves mailing list<br>
>><br>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
>> <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>><br>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
>> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>><br>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>
>> <a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Stoves mailing list<br>
><br>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
> <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
><br>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
><br>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>
> <a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
Stoves mailing list<br>
<br>
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
<a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>
<a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
<br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Paul A. Olivier PhD<br>26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong<br>Dalat<br>Vietnam<br>
<br>Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)<br>Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)<br>Skype address: Xpolivier<br><a href="http://www.esrla.com/" target="_blank">http://www.esrla.com/</a>
</div>