<div dir="ltr"><div><div>Mark,<br><br></div>Thanks so much for your contribution here.<br></div><div>We are in full agreement on this point.<br></div><div><br></div>Paul Olivier<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">
On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 12:21 PM, Mark Bigland-Pritchard / Low Energy Design Ltd <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:mark@lowenergydesign.com" target="_blank">mark@lowenergydesign.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
I wouldn't normally want to post off-topic, but I think it is
necessary that an error be corrected before this thread is put to
sleep.<br>
<br>
It is scientifically accurate to say that the acidity of the oceans
has increased.<br>
<br>
It is well documented that the average pH of the oceans has
decreased by about 0.1. Because pH is a logarithmic scale, this
actually means a 30% increase in the hydrogen ion activity. In
other words, the acidity has increased by 30%. This is basic
chemistry, not "nonsense". (The fact that carbon dioxide, when
dissolved in water, forms carbonic acid, is also basic chemistry.)<br>
<br>
But yes the oceans are alkaline. The shift in pH is from about 8.2
to about 8.1. (Less alkaline = more acidic, wherever you are on the
pH scale.) People who have dedicated their lives to studying
oceanic ecosystems are saying that even this ostensibly small drop
in pH is impacting on crustacea, corals, calcifying microorganisms
and other highly-calcium-dependent species - and therefore also on
the whole ecosystems which depend on them for food or shelter. (And
remember, humans are at the top of the food chain in many of those
ecosystems.) That is why this is a serious matter.<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
mark</font></span><div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 2013:07:04 21:14, Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott wrote:<br>
</div>
</div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div class="h5">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Paul
O<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">The
point Andrew was making when asking that the conversation
about climate be moved to another site was to prevent that
sort of nonsense cluttering up this site which is a domestic
stoves discussion list.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">When
someone repeats a claims that the ‘oceans have increased in
acidity by one third’ and implying it is because of man-made
CO2 emissions from fossil fuels it deserves to be labelled
exactly that o nonsense. The oceans are alkaline, not acidic
and cannot ‘increase in acidity by one third’ – whatever
that means. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
wrote to you privately because the discussion does not
belong here.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Please
accept the moderator’s view.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Thanks<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Crispin
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"" lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"" lang="EN-US"> Stoves
[<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Paul Olivier<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 04, 2013 8:09 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Stoves] on ocean acidification<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">In a previous email I had cited an
article by Mark Bittman concerning ocean acidification.
Crispin responded to me off-list and said:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br clear="all">
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">That
was the most outrageous set of nonsense on oceans
and CO2 I have seem. What rubbish. </span></i><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> The
oceans are not acidic.</span></i><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">CO2
absorbed by water turns about 1% into carbonic acid,
a fragile composition with a short lifespan.</span></i><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">If
the oceans were to absorb many many gigatons of CO2
it would become slightly less alkaline.</span></i><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">It
seems that Bittman does not even know the most basic
facts about oceans and just attributes everything he
sees to ‘AGW’. His writings are not helping the
reputation of science. His view are not informing
the discussion. His conclusions are worthy of
ridicule.</span></i><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Fish
and mollusk populations rise and fall with the food
supply. When the PDO changed in 1976 there were also
large population shifts. It has shifted again. The
shift is 100% natural and has nothing to do with
human fuel use.</span></i><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span>I
replied to his email as follows:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i>Please
do not label everything that you disagree with as
rubbish, nonsense, or as worthy of ridicule. It is
hard to conduct a debate when you use such language.<br>
<br>
I would like to draw your attention to the following:<br>
<a href="http://www.sightline.org/research/northwest-ocean-acidification/" target="_blank">http://www.sightline.org/research/northwest-ocean-acidification/</a><br>
<a href="http://www.sightline.org/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2012/02/OA-primer1.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.sightline.org/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2012/02/OA-primer1.pdf</a><br>
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_acidification" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_acidification</a></i><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><i><a href="http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/co2/story/Ocean+Acidification" target="_blank">http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/co2/story/Ocean+Acidification</a><br>
<a href="http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/co2/story/What+is+Ocean+Acidification%3F" target="_blank">http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/co2/story/What+is+Ocean+Acidification%3F</a></i><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i>I would like to ask the members of
this stove list: why do we go about designing stoves?
Are we only concerned about poor people in developing
countries who sit around dirty campfires? Or do we
want to design stoves that at the same time address
important issues such as climate change, global
warming and ocean acidification? <br>
</i><br>
Thanks.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Paul<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">---<br>
Paul A. Olivier PhD<br>
26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong<br>
Dalat<br>
Vietnam<br>
<br>
Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)<br>
Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)<br>
Skype address: Xpolivier<br>
<a href="http://www.esrla.com/" target="_blank">http://www.esrla.com/</a> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Paul A. Olivier PhD<br>26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong<br>Dalat<br>Vietnam<br>
<br>Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)<br>Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)<br>Skype address: Xpolivier<br><a href="http://www.esrla.com/" target="_blank">http://www.esrla.com/</a>
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