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Mark,<br>
<br>
on a logarithmic scale how many times can you make a 30% change?<br>
<br>
i.e., is there only hydrogen ion activity over <0.4points of the
pH scale or are you saying something different?<br>
<br>
regards,<br>
Ronald von pHneutralOberbayern<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 05.07.2013 07:41, Paul Olivier
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAOreFvZt4mduEVArYjX2X+jkTYSBsphxP=s7tSB7qpkr3rr27A@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>Mark,<br>
<br>
</div>
Thanks so much for your contribution here.<br>
</div>
<div>We are in full agreement on this point.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
Paul Olivier<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 12:21 PM, Mark Bigland-Pritchard / Low
Energy Design Ltd <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mark@lowenergydesign.com" target="_blank">mark@lowenergydesign.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> I wouldn't normally
want to post off-topic, but I think it is necessary that
an error be corrected before this thread is put to sleep.<br>
<br>
It is scientifically accurate to say that the acidity of
the oceans has increased.<br>
<br>
It is well documented that the average pH of the oceans
has decreased by about 0.1. Because pH is a logarithmic
scale, this actually means a 30% increase in the hydrogen
ion activity. In other words, the acidity has increased
by 30%. This is basic chemistry, not "nonsense". (The
fact that carbon dioxide, when dissolved in water, forms
carbonic acid, is also basic chemistry.)<br>
<br>
But yes the oceans are alkaline. The shift in pH is from
about 8.2 to about 8.1. (Less alkaline = more acidic,
wherever you are on the pH scale.) People who have
dedicated their lives to studying oceanic ecosystems are
saying that even this ostensibly small drop in pH is
impacting on crustacea, corals, calcifying microorganisms
and other highly-calcium-dependent species - and therefore
also on the whole ecosystems which depend on them for food
or shelter. (And remember, humans are at the top of the
food chain in many of those ecosystems.) That is why this
is a serious matter.<span class="HOEnZb"><font
color="#888888"><br>
<br>
mark</font></span>
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 2013:07:04 21:14, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
wrote:<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div class="h5">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Paul
O</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">The
point Andrew was making when asking that the
conversation about climate be moved to another
site was to prevent that sort of nonsense
cluttering up this site which is a domestic
stoves discussion list.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">When
someone repeats a claims that the ‘oceans have
increased in acidity by one third’ and
implying it is because of man-made CO2
emissions from fossil fuels it deserves to be
labelled exactly that o nonsense. The oceans
are alkaline, not acidic and cannot ‘increase
in acidity by one third’ – whatever that
means. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
wrote to you privately because the discussion
does not belong here.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Please
accept the moderator’s view.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Thanks</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Crispin
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US"> Stoves [<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target="_blank">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul Olivier<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 04, 2013 8:09 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Stoves] on ocean
acidification</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">In a previous email I had
cited an article by Mark Bittman concerning
ocean acidification. Crispin responded to me
off-list and said:</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br clear="all">
</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">That
was the most outrageous set of
nonsense on oceans and CO2 I have
seem. What rubbish. </span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> The
oceans are not acidic.</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">CO2
absorbed by water turns about 1% into
carbonic acid, a fragile composition
with a short lifespan.</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">If
the oceans were to absorb many many
gigatons of CO2 it would become
slightly less alkaline.</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">It
seems that Bittman does not even know
the most basic facts about oceans and
just attributes everything he sees to
‘AGW’. His writings are not helping
the reputation of science. His view
are not informing the discussion. His
conclusions are worthy of ridicule.</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Fish
and mollusk populations rise and fall
with the food supply. When the PDO
changed in 1976 there were also large
population shifts. It has shifted
again. The shift is 100% natural and
has nothing to do with human fuel use.</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span>I
replied to his email as follows:</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i>Please do not label
everything that you disagree with as
rubbish, nonsense, or as worthy of
ridicule. It is hard to conduct a debate
when you use such language.<br>
<br>
I would like to draw your attention to
the following:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.sightline.org/research/northwest-ocean-acidification/"
target="_blank">http://www.sightline.org/research/northwest-ocean-acidification/</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.sightline.org/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2012/02/OA-primer1.pdf"
target="_blank">http://www.sightline.org/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2012/02/OA-primer1.pdf</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_acidification"
target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_acidification</a></i></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><i><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/co2/story/Ocean+Acidification"
target="_blank">http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/co2/story/Ocean+Acidification</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/co2/story/What+is+Ocean+Acidification%3F"
target="_blank">http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/co2/story/What+is+Ocean+Acidification%3F</a></i></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i>I would like to ask
the members of this stove list: why do
we go about designing stoves? Are we
only concerned about poor people in
developing countries who sit around
dirty campfires? Or do we want to design
stoves that at the same time address
important issues such as climate change,
global warming and ocean acidification?
<br>
</i><br>
Thanks.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Paul</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">---<br>
Paul A. Olivier PhD<br>
26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong<br>
Dalat<br>
Vietnam<br>
<br>
Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings
Vietnam)<br>
Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)<br>
Skype address: Xpolivier<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.esrla.com/"
target="_blank">http://www.esrla.com/</a>
</p>
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-- <br>
Paul A. Olivier PhD<br>
26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong<br>
Dalat<br>
Vietnam<br>
<br>
Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)<br>
Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)<br>
Skype address: Xpolivier<br>
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