<div dir="ltr"><div><div><div>Crispin,<br><br></div>You write: <i><br>In the case of rain, which has a CO2 content of over 10,000 ppm it is
'50,000% more acidic' than ocean water at pH 8.2. In fact rain really is
acidic.</i><br></div><br>Yes, the rain can be quite acidic. But a great deal of this acidity is not due to natural causes:<br><p><i>Farming, livestock husbandry, and the combustion of fossil
fuels cause excess sulfur dioxide, ammonia, and nitrogen oxides to be released
to the atmosphere, where they are transformed into nitric acid and sulfuric
acid. Though much of that acid is deposited on land (since it does not remain
in the air for long), some of it can be carried in the air all the way to the
coastal ocean. </i></p><i>
</i><p> </p><i>
</i><p><i>When nitrogen and sulfur compounds from the atmosphere are
mixed into coastal waters, the researchers found, the change in water chemistry
was as much as 10 to 50 percent of the total changes caused by acidification
from carbon dioxide.</i></p><a href="http://www.whoi.edu/main/news-releases/2007?tid=3622&cid=31286">http://www.whoi.edu/main/news-releases/2007?tid=3622&cid=31286</a><br><br></div>Thanks.<br>Paul Olivier<br><div>
<div><br>
</div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 3:25 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com" target="_blank">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Dear Frank<br>
<br>
I want to get the math of this correct. The claim is that the oceans have changed pH from 8.2 to 8.1, that this is (at least in part or totally) caused by human emissions of CO2, right? And further that this represents a '30% increase in acidity'.<br>
<br>
The method described asserts that it is a logarithmic scale and that the 30% and the term 'acidity' are appropriate.<br>
<br>
I would like to put this in perspective. If the 'acidity' rose 15,800% then the oceans would be Neutral, neither acidic nor alkaline using conventional terminology.<br>
<br>
As oceans vary from about 8.4 to 7.8 that is a natural variation of '400%', using the same definition as is applied in the case of '30%'.<br>
<br>
In the case of rain, which has a CO2 content of over 10,000 ppm it is '50,000% more acidic' than ocean water at pH 8.2. In fact rain really is acidic.<br>
<br>
Seems to me that if '30%' is catastrophic the EPA should ban rainfall with immediate effect. It is obviously wrecking the ocean.<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
Crispin<br>
>From BB9900<br>
<div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: "Frank Shields" <<a href="mailto:frank@compostlab.com">frank@compostlab.com</a>><br>
Sender: "Stoves" <<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2013 10:29:22<br>
To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'<<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
<<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] on ocean acidification<br>
<br>
This is a very good topic and related to Stoves to the point of noting the<br>
difference of a measure of Biochar pH value and alkalinity value. The pH is<br>
really not that important as many think it is. It's the alkalinity that is<br>
important. Having a water with a pH of 8.3 takes little acid to lower the pH<br>
but toss in a chunk of lime and the pH is still 8.3 but you will need to add<br>
acid until all the lime is dissolved before the pH goes down. So pH is just<br>
a reading. Alkalinity (or neutralizing value) is a measure of the amount of<br>
buffering holding that pH. We report this as CaCO3 equivalent units so it<br>
can be compared to adding limestone to a soil. We boil a Biochar sample in<br>
100 mls of 0.5N HCl to dissolve all the carbonates and oxides in the sample<br>
then back titrate using NaOH to determine the amount buffering (or<br>
neutralizing value) the sample has. Much more useful.<br>
<br>
Frank<br>
<br>
<br>
Thanks<br>
<br>
Frank Shields<br>
<br>
BioChar Division<br>
Control Laboratories, Inc.<br>
42 Hangar Way<br>
Watsonville, CE 95076<br>
<br>
(831) 724-5422 tel<br>
(81) 724-3188 fax<br>
<a href="mailto:frank@biocharlab.com">frank@biocharlab.com</a><br>
<a href="http://www.controllabs.com" target="_blank">www.controllabs.com</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Stoves [mailto:<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>] On Behalf Of<br>
<a href="mailto:ajheggie@gmail.com">ajheggie@gmail.com</a><br>
Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2013 11:47 PM<br>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] on ocean acidification<br>
<br>
On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 23:21:20 -0600,Mark Bigland-Pritchard / Low Energy<br>
Design Ltd <<a href="mailto:mark@lowenergydesign.com">mark@lowenergydesign.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
>I wouldn't normally want to post off-topic, but I think it is necessary<br>
>that an error be corrected before this thread is put to sleep.<br>
<br>
Mark I'm happy with your correction explaining pH. As we generally do use pH<br>
to denote acidity rather than hydrogen ions I think it is misleading to then<br>
say a 30% increase in hydrogen ion activity equates to a 30% change in<br>
acidity.<br>
<br>
I think change in ocean ecology due to this small change in pH is a very<br>
serious concern but please all of you take the discussion elsewhere and<br>
stick to stove issues.<br>
<br>
AJH<br>
<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Paul A. Olivier PhD<br>26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong<br>Dalat<br>Vietnam<br>
<br>Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)<br>Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)<br>Skype address: Xpolivier<br><a href="http://www.esrla.com/" target="_blank">http://www.esrla.com/</a>
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