<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv=Content-Type>
<STYLE type=text/css>P {
MARGIN: 0px
}
</STYLE>
<META name=GENERATOR content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.23501"></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear Ron</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>My list of "Features important to the Customer" is
far from complete. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Certainly, a "stove that makes money" will be of interest
to some stove Customers. Paul Oliver has laid out an excellent case for his Rice
hull stoves that produce char which can be sold profitably. Undoubtedly, there
are other similar opportunities that could be built around other Agricultural
Wastes elsewhere, where rice hulls are not available.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>The fundamental issue is: What features does the Customer
want in a stove? Some Customers will want a Rice Hull stove producing char for
sale and profit, while on the other hand, some Customers may refuse to buy such
a stove, because it is a "money maker", and the "Rich People" that the Customer
wishes to emulate do not buy stoves that make money. The very feature that
makes Paul O's stove system so attractive to some Customers could actually kill
sales to others.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Who wants stoves that produce biochar? Who wants stoves
that do not produce biochar? Unless a Customer actually wants biochar, either
for sale, or for his own use, the Customer may specifically steer away from
a char producing stove, because of the perception of "wasting fuel." What the
Customer chooses should be up to the Customer.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Stove Policy People may want the World to produce
stoves that reduce Ocean Acidification, but how many Stove Customers want this
feature in a stove? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Best wishes,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Kevin</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rongretlarson@comcast.net
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=psanders@ilstu.edu
href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">Paul Anderson</A> ; <A
title=kchisholm@ca.inter.net href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">Kevin
Chisholm</A> ; <A title=adkarve@gmail.com
href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com">Anand Karve</A> ; <A
title=steveastrouk@gmail.com href="mailto:steveastrouk@gmail.com">Steve
Taylor</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, July 07, 2013 6:36 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] Designing for the
affluent AND the poor.... this isNOT Re: ocean acidification</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Kevin,
Paul, Steve, AD, List etal<BR><BR>1. I concur
with Steve Taylor re congratulating AD (in message just received in this
thread) for wisdom on developing country desires to emulate developed
countries on consumer products. I believe we can go further and say this
applies to incomes.<BR><BR>2. Mainly I write to note that Kevin
(appropriately) places making money first on the producer side of the
seller-buyer lists. But it appears nowhere on Kevin's list for the buyer
side - even though about half of the messages on this list relate to TLUDs,
with all TLUD purveyors well aware that charcoal can be sold by TLUD
stove users. Both of Kevin's lists are below<BR><BR>3. Kevin
mention's Cecil Cook doing interviews on consumer stove preferences. Anyone
know if making money while cooking was a stove-user question that Cecil
asked?<BR><BR>Ron<BR>
<HR id=zwchr>
<B>From: </B>"Kevin" <kchisholm@ca.inter.net><BR><B>To: </B>"Paul
Anderson" <psanders@ilstu.edu>, "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
<stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><BR><B>Sent: </B>Sunday, July 7, 2013
2:27:19 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: [Stoves] Designing for the affluent AND the
poor.... this is NOT Re: ocean
acidification<BR><BR>Dear Paul<BR>----- Original Message ----- <BR>From: "Paul
Anderson" <psanders@ilstu.edu><BR>To: "Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves" <stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><BR>Cc: "Kevin"
<kchisholm@ca.inter.net><BR>Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2013 4:26
PM<BR>Subject: Re: [Stoves] Designing for the affluent AND the poor.... this
is <BR>NOT Re: ocean acidification<BR><BR><BR>Kevin and
all,<BR><BR>><BR>> Should it [Stoves List discussion] be driven by
"Producer Push" or <BR>> "Customer Pull"?<BR>Considering that "customers"
(local people in poverty, not NGOs) are so<BR>few on this Listserv, the very
worthy attention to "Customer Pull" is<BR>likely to be viewed through the eyes
of the "Producers".<BR><BR># An astute Producer will find out what the
Customer REALLY wants, and will <BR>configure his Product Offering to
meet the wants to the greatest extent <BR>possible. Stove design involves
compromises, and the trick is to get as many <BR>of the wanted features as is
possible, without building in "unwanted <BR>features", such as "too costly",
"too flimsy", "unacceptably ugly", too <BR>unsafe", etc.<BR><BR>I think that
Producer Push is not as bad as it is thought to be, at<BR>least not when by
Producers who have substantial overseas experience and<BR>are not driven by
the monetary reward.<BR><BR># "Prioducer Push" can be both "good" and "bad".
It is "good" if the <BR>producer aagressively and effectively promotes a
product that accurately <BR>addresses the Customer Wants. It is "bad" when the
Producer incorporates <BR>features that are now wanted by the
Customer.<BR><BR>Example: When the target Customers are quite unaware of
some advances<BR>that could be beneficial to them, there is zero "pull". And
any attempts<BR>to inform them of such advances would certainly be a form of
Producer<BR>Push or Push from Outside of their societies.<BR><BR># This is
where work of the calibre being done by Cecil is so important. He <BR>sets out
to identify the features of a stove that are REALLY important to <BR>the
customer. Then, a Stove Producer can configure a Stove Product that best
<BR>meets the "Customer Wants". This is where the Stove producer can shine,
with <BR>new technology, better materials, better design, etc.<BR><BR># The
'Policy People" at "Head Office" may want to Customer to buy a stove <BR>that
reduces "Ocean Acidification", or "Improves climate Conditions", or
<BR>"Produces Char", but if the Customer does not want these features, the
stove <BR>will not sell. Clearly, with so many potential Customers out there,
some <BR>will want these features, and will be willing to pay for them. While
most <BR>people buy bicycles, there is still a market for unicycles, but it is
a <BR>small percentage of the bicycle market. This is where "Producer Push"
can go <BR>wrong.<BR><BR>Best wishes,<BR><BR>Kevin<BR><BR>Paul<BR><BR>Paul S.
Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"<BR>Email: psanders@ilstu.edu
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072<BR>Website:
www.drtlud.com<BR><BR>On 7/6/2013 8:41 AM, Kevin wrote:<BR>> Dear
Paul<BR>><BR>> This is the STOVES list.<BR>><BR>> Should it be
driven by "Producer Push" or "Customer Pull"?<BR>><BR>> I would suggest
the Stoves List should be driven by "Customer Pull."<BR>><BR>> The Boy
Scout who helps the proverbial "Little Old Lady" across the street <BR>>
does a good deed only when the Little Old Lady" wanted to go across the
<BR>> street.<BR>><BR>> In my opinion, the Stoves List should focus
on providing Stove Customers <BR>> with what they want.<BR>><BR>>
Just what do "Stove Customers" want?<BR>><BR>> There are many facets to
"Stoves". There is no such thing as "THE perfect <BR>> stove", but there
are as many "perfect stoves" as there are stoves that <BR>> perfectly meet
the wants and needs of the Stove Customer.<BR>><BR>> Some factors that
may be of importance to Stove Customers are:<BR>> * Initial cost<BR>> *
Portability<BR>> * Appearance<BR>> * Cooking capability<BR>> * Space
heating capability<BR>> * Fuel efficiency<BR>> * Durability<BR>> *
Visual access to flame<BR>> * Pride of ownership<BR>> *
Cleanliness<BR>> * Safety<BR>> * Smoke free living space<BR>> *
Particulate free living space<BR>> * Etc.<BR>><BR>> There are MANY
more factors of importance to the Stove Customer. There are <BR>> MANY,
MANY combinations of factors that are of importance to Stove <BR>>
Customers.<BR>><BR>> Stove Producers produce stoves for many different
motivations. Some <BR>> motivations or "drivers" include:<BR>> * To make
money<BR>> * To feel good<BR>> * To do good<BR>> * To create a market
for a particular fuel or technology<BR>> * To create an economic base for
community development<BR>> * To address a health concern<BR>> * To
address an Environmental Concern<BR>> * To further another Agenda<BR>> *
Etc.<BR>><BR>> To the extent that the interests of the Customer and the
Producer overlap, <BR>> their mutual interests will be
served.<BR>><BR>> Perhaps there should also be a "Stoves Policy List",
where the interests <BR>> and agendas of Stove Promoters and Producers were
discussed, and perhaps <BR>> the "Stoves List" should focus more on the
interests of the Stove <BR>> Customers?<BR>><BR>> What do you
think?<BR>><BR>> Best wishes,<BR>><BR>> Kevin<BR>><BR>>
----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Anderson"
<psanders@ilstu.edu><BR>> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
<BR>> <stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><BR>> Sent: Saturday, July
06, 2013 1:54 AM<BR>> Subject: [Stoves] Designing for the affluent AND the
poor.... this is NOT <BR>> Re: ocean acidification<BR>><BR>><BR>>
Thank you Richard and Andrew,<BR>><BR>> I agree with your comments below
EXCEPT that you did not change the<BR>> Subject line. And therefore
List readers who are fed up with the<BR>> oceanic acidity discussion are
unlikely to have read your comments. By<BR>> the way, I did NOT read
those messages. But I do read whatever Andrew<BR>> and Richard
contribute to the Listserv.<BR>><BR>> Now, about designs for the
affluent AND the poor. This relates to<BR>> "trickle down
technology" that believes that by helping the rich, the<BR>> poor will
benefit..... EVENTUALLY benefit. Sure. a few years
or<BR>> decades or lifetimes later.<BR>><BR>> I am glad that affluent
societies financially supported cell/mobile<BR>> phone development. A
great example of trickle down technology coming<BR>> rather quickly.
But it reached the poor societies because business<BR>> found that it could
make money off of the needs of poor people to also<BR>> communicate.
And microchips etc are really inexpensive. We are<BR>> unlikely to
see similar benefits relating to cookstoves.<BR>><BR>> Even as it is
today, MUCH of stove work/efforts are targeted to the more<BR>> affluent of
the poor, those who are in the upper parts of the BASE of<BR>> the pyramid
(BOP). That makes more sense than trying to get biomass<BR>> fuel
stoves into typical American and European households. But that<BR>>
approach (well established and supported by the GACC and the World
Bank<BR>> ACESS programs) still leaves a massive lack of attention to the
needs of<BR>> the true base of the BOP. But at least the distance to
trickle down<BR>> from the upper BOP to the lower BOP is less (and should
be faster) than<BR>> trickle down from the Top of the Pyramid to be base of
the BOP.<BR>><BR>> If you decide to reply to this Thread of messages,
please stick to this<BR>> topic. (Or change the Subject line to
reflect what you are actually<BR>> talking about. After all, the
Subject line has at least two<BR>> purposes: One is to continue the
Thread, and the other is to inform<BR>> the reader what is the actual
subject being discussed.)<BR>><BR>> Paul with 4 more
days in Uganda, then I bring home over 300 pounds<BR>> of stove progress
(available baggage allowance for 3 people) to show at<BR>> Stove Camps and
biochar meetings in late July, early Sept and mid<BR>> October in Oregon,
Tennessee, and Massachusetts, respectively. I hope<BR>> to see many
of you as I cross the USA by car from my home base in <BR>>
Illinois.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Paul S. Anderson, PhD
aka "Dr TLUD"<BR>> Email: psanders@ilstu.edu Skype:
paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072<BR>> Website:
www.drtlud.com<BR>><BR>> On 7/5/2013 7:01 PM, Richard Stanley
wrote:<BR>>> Hi Andrew.<BR>>><BR>>> Climate "discussions"
aside, I wanted to elaborate on the implications <BR>>> of your
observation about where" designing" is easier:<BR>>> I agree with
you that it is easier to design anything "for someone" ( <BR>>>
especially those less equipped to express their opinions and experiences,
<BR>>> needs and resources)…... than to do it with them in their
context…<BR>>><BR>>> My own experience tells me that the latter is
the sticky part that few <BR>>> really want to get into and it's a huge
part of determining whether or<BR>>> not ones best intentions stick or
not. That sticky part makes really <BR>>> designing from within a good
bit more challenging that simply designing a <BR>>> technical object and
selling it here….<BR>>><BR>>> Richard Stanley<BR>>> NW part
of the Americas<BR>>> ==================<BR>>> On Jul 4, 2013, at
12:14 AM, ajheggie@gmail.com wrote:<BR>>><BR>>> [Default] On Thu,
4 Jul 2013 05:41:33 +0700,Paul Olivier<BR>>>
<paul.olivier@esrla.com> wrote:<BR>>><BR>>>> It is easy
to design stoves for poor people in Third World countries. It <BR>>>>
is<BR>>>> a much bigger challenge to design them for use each day in
our own <BR>>>> kitchens.<BR>>> Stove design and use is on
topic for [stoves] but there are other<BR>>> forums on which it is
better to discuss world changing effects,<BR>>> important as they might
be.<BR>>><BR>>> AJH<BR>>><BR>>>
_______________________________________________<BR>>> Stoves mailing
list<BR>>><BR>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<BR>>> stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<BR>>><BR>>> to
UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<BR>>>
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org<BR>>><BR>>>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
site:<BR>>>
http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>
_______________________________________________<BR>>> Stoves mailing
list<BR>>><BR>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<BR>>> stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<BR>>><BR>>> to
UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<BR>>>
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org<BR>>><BR>>>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
site:<BR>>>
http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/<BR>>><BR>><BR>><BR>>
_______________________________________________<BR>> Stoves mailing
list<BR>><BR>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<BR>> stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<BR>><BR>> to UNSUBSCRIBE
or Change your List Settings use the web page<BR>>
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org<BR>><BR>>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
site:<BR>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/<BR>><BR>><BR>>
_______________________________________________<BR>> Stoves mailing
list<BR>><BR>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<BR>> stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<BR>><BR>> to UNSUBSCRIBE
or Change your List Settings use the web page<BR>>
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org<BR>><BR>>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
site:<BR>>
http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/<BR>><BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Stoves
mailing list<BR><BR>to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<BR>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<BR><BR>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change
your List Settings use the web
page<BR>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org<BR><BR>for
more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
site:<BR>http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/<BR><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>