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<DIV style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px" class=hr contentEditable=false readonly="true"></DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Rebecca A. Vermeer <ravermeer@telus.net><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org <BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Saturday, July 13, 2013 11:42 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> [Stoves] Designing for the affluent AND the poor.... this is NOT Re: ocean acidification<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=y_msg_container><BR>Dear Stovers,<BR>Let me introduce a kiln-fired clay stove from the Philippines that was <BR>designed for the poor but ended up benefiting the middle class and the <BR>affluent because of sky-rocketing LPG prices. Within the last 6 months, <BR>LPG prices in Dumaguete City, Philippines have fluctuated between US$1.70/kg <BR>and $3.17/kg. Even when priced below 50% of production costs (500 pesos or <BR>US$11.54 ), the poor cannot afford it.<BR><BR>The stove is the ECO-KALAN-C. One stove can cook food for a small household <BR>or a crowd of 100 people. In a recent birthday celebration at Felipa <BR>Beach, Philippines, the ECO-KALAN-C cooked 83.5 kg of food (PORK & BEANS <BR>= 37.25 kg; PANCIT (noodles, meat & vegetables) = 12.25 kg; FISH = 4.25 <BR>kg; and RICE = 29.75 kg ) in 3 1/2 hours of continuous cooking using 6.95
<BR>kg of wood valued at 31.21 pesos (US$ 0.72). See TABLE 6 and the <BR>Attributes of this stove in the link below:<BR><BR>COOKING ON ECO-KALAN-C (for Belle's Birthday Party)<BR><A href="" target=_blank>https://plus.google.com/photos/113101643783889350444/albums/5900103819444327585</A><BR><BR>At its subsidized price of 500 pesos, the payback period for this stove is <BR>less than a month, even for small families.<BR><BR>If interested to know more about the Project , please take a look at the <BR>link below. I would appreciate ideas on how to bring the cost of producing <BR>the ECO-KALAN to affordable & sustainable level. Thank you.<BR><BR>ECO-KALAN PROJECT IN THE PHILIPPINES<BR>Presented to the Rotary Club of Sidney, British Columbia, Canada<BR><A href="" target=_blank>https://plus.google.com/photos/113101643783889350444/albums/5898258706868741537</A><BR><BR>Regards,<BR>Rebecca
Vermeer<BR>email: <A href="" ymailto="mailto:ravermeer@telus.net">ravermeer@telus.net</A><BR><BR>-----Original Message----- <BR>From: M. Nurhuda<BR>Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2013 6:41 PM<BR>To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<BR>Subject: Re: [Stoves] Designing for the affluent AND the poor.... this is <BR>NOT Re: ocean acidification<BR><BR>Dear Cecil,<BR><BR>Thank for report.<BR>Let me comment about the LPG.<BR><BR>As you might know, around 60% of LPG national demands are imported,<BR>particularly from Aramco. Around 30% are distilled in Indonesian refinery<BR>facility, but the crude oils are imported from other country. Therefore,<BR>the economical price of LPG should be at least Rp. 10.000,-/kg or US$<BR>1/kg, with assumption that the LPG trading is tax free. However, people<BR>get the LPG at price of Rp. 4500/kg.<BR><BR>In the last time, there were some discourses to replace LPG with Dimethil<BR>Ether (DME), but we will see whether the
next new president tends to be<BR>populists, at all cost.<BR><BR>In my personal opinion, if should be not a problem with such populist<BR>energy policy if we were still oil exporter country, as 20 year ago, but<BR>in fact, we are now nett oil importer country. Around 500.000-800.0000<BR>barrels/day (nett) oils are now imported.<BR><BR>Kind regards<BR>M. Nurhuda<BR>(East Java, Indonesia)<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>> Continuing my contribution:<BR>><BR>> Interestingly, with the arrival of electricity in most villages and the<BR>> governments roll out of 55 million free LPG stove/3 kg canister kits<BR>> several remarkable changes in rural kitchens are taking place:<BR>><BR>> (i.) better off families are buying electric rice steamers which they<BR>> uses<BR>> regularly thereby reducing the household cooking load by about 25%;<BR>> (ii.) making limited use of the LPG stove (some families use less than 3<BR>> kg<BR>> of
LPG a month) for quick cooking tasks such as reheating cold food, quick<BR>> frying tofu and tempe, heating small amounts of water for tea, stir frying<BR>> veggies, etc. The average use of LPG is about 6kg per month which only<BR>> costs $.50 a kg because the government subsidizes the cost by +/- $.50 per<BR>> kg. The point is that households minimize their expenditure for LPG by<BR>> deciding what stove work tasks they perform using free biomass and what<BR>> tasks they perform using subsidized electricity and LPG.<BR>> (iii.) heavy stove work tasks like boiling 20 litres of palm nectar down<BR>> to<BR>> 2 kgs of sugar which can take up to 3 hours is done using the traditional<BR>> high powered stove fueled by free (collected) biomass<BR>> (iv.) the introduction of the electric rice cooker and the LPG stove has<BR>> made it possible for rural families to separate between the dirty part of<BR>> the kitchen
where the big pots and woks used for home industries are soot<BR>> covered and a clean section or corner of the kitchen organized around the<BR>> LPG stove and rice cooker where the pots are all scrubbed clean.<BR>><BR>> What I observed in Yogyakarta Province is that the percentage of stove<BR>> work<BR>> performed using biomass decreases as one moves from deep rural areas into<BR>> the peri-rural towns and peri-urban zones. Households adjust their stoves<BR>> and energy carriers to their income, kitchen sizes, and the availability<BR>> of<BR>> free biomass fuel.<BR>><BR>> The World Bank is now carrying out a many paged questionnaire to attempt<BR>> to<BR>> differentiate the geographical zones and economic levels of the biomass<BR>> economy in Yogyakarta. It turns out to be very complex. Strangely, urban<BR>> families who no longer cook with biomass in their small urban kitchens,<BR>>
continue to eat traditional foods prepared with biomass because there are<BR>> thousands of small vendors of traditional and regional foods available<BR>> nearby or on their doorsteps. A significant percentage of the biomass<BR>> economy has moved out of the small urban kitchen and has been taken over<BR>> by<BR>> small vendors and restaurants in the street. In Yogyakarta there is a<BR>> food<BR>> vendor every 50 meters of urban corridor.<BR>><BR>> The complexity of the provincial biomass economy is caused by the fact<BR>> that<BR>> there are about 10 different major biomass stove using constituencies<BR>> which<BR>> expect their stoves to perform specific functions well. Some food vendors<BR>> use charcoal, firewood, LPG and electricity cooking technologies and<BR>> energy<BR>> carriers to prepare food for sale to customers.<BR>><BR>> In Indonesia with its 250 000 000 people and +/- 65
million households, I<BR>> estimate there are more than 100 million biomass stoves in use. These 100<BR>> million biomass stoves are divided up among farming households who mainly<BR>> use them for household cooking and ceremonial functions, households that<BR>> use stoves to process crops and generate revenue, peri-rural/peri-urban<BR>> (intermediate) households which use biomass to minimize expenditure on<BR>> LPG,<BR>> food vendors in all zones who prepare large volumes of food for sale,<BR>> urban<BR>> households that have converted entirely to a clean kitchen using<BR>> electricity and LPG that still buys traditional foods from street vendors<BR>> and small restaurants. Each of these different stove use constituency has<BR>> its own preferences in terms of what stove work functions it prioritizes.<BR>> In such a potentially enormous biomass stove market as Indonesia, it will<BR>> be necessary
for designer, producers and marketers to target specific<BR>> stove<BR>> using communities. We need to first understand what stove work functions<BR>> they use their stoves to perform and once we know how well their<BR>> traditional stoves perform these functions we can begin to design and<BR>> produce stoves that out perform the baseline stove technologies.<BR>><BR>> Hope these remarks do not give you a headache. Anthropologists have a bad<BR>> reputation because we tend to make solutions that work for the people more<BR>> complex and difficult to deliver. It turns out that reality is normally<BR>> more complex than we want it to be.<BR>><BR>> In service,<BR>><BR>> Cecil<BR>><BR>> In service,<BR>><BR>><BR>> On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 5:47 PM, Cecil Cook <<A href="" ymailto="mailto:cec1863@gmail.com">cec1863@gmail.com</A>> wrote:<BR>><BR>>> Dear
stovers,<BR>>><BR>>> Ron asks:<BR>>> *Kevin mention's Cecil Cook doing interviews on consumer stove<BR>>> preferences. Anyone know if making money while cooking was a stove-user<BR>>> question that Cecil asked?*<BR>>><BR>>> The World Bank is currently conducting a many paged questionnaire to<BR>>> identify the full spectrum of stove use and stove work functions in a<BR>>> range<BR>>> of different stove use constituencies. My fieldwork in agricultural<BR>>> villages in Yogyakarta and Central Java clearly indicated that<BR>>> traditional<BR>>> self constructed multi-pothole stoves are used for the following<BR>>> functions:<BR>>><BR>>> 1. household cooking and water heating (for bathing and<BR>>> pasteurization) (2 pots cooking/heating at the same time) ,<BR>>> 2. income generation (making palm sugar,
frying chips, crackers and<BR>>> other snack foods for sale),<BR>>> 3. drying crops such as corn, peanuts, root crops, herbs for home use<BR>>> and sale on racks above the stove,<BR>>> 4. space heating in households that are more than 500 meter ASL,<BR>>> 5. drying damp firewood and clothes during the rainy season,<BR>>> 6. cooking large quantities of food to feed the extended family<BR>>> (woks/pots with 10 to 20 litres of water to boil meat, cook rice,<BR>>> cook<BR>>> soups and vegetables) at wedding, funerals (7 observances over 3<BR>>> years),<BR>>> and village gatherings (the stove needs to be big enough to deliver<BR>>> 10 to<BR>>> 15 kW of power to the pot),<BR>>> 7. creating a social hearth or focus for the household
including<BR>>> emitting enough flickering light to cook by<BR>>><BR>>> So the traditional stove is versatile multi-functional 'workhorse'.<BR>>><BR>>> Interestingly, with the arrival of electricity in most villages and the<BR>>> governments roll out of 55 million free LPG stove/3 kg canister kits<BR>>> several remarkable changes in rural kitchens are taking place:<BR>>><BR>>> (i.)<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 11:36 AM, <<A href="" ymailto="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</A>> wrote:<BR>>><BR>>>> Kevin, Paul, Steve, AD, List etal<BR>>>><BR>>>> 1. I concur with Steve Taylor re congratulating AD (in message just<BR>>>> received in this thread) for wisdom on developing country desires to<BR>>>> emulate developed countries on consumer
products. I believe we can go<BR>>>> further and say this applies to incomes.<BR>>>><BR>>>> 2. Mainly I write to note that Kevin (appropriately) places making<BR>>>> money first on the producer side of the seller-buyer lists. But it<BR>>>> appears<BR>>>> nowhere on Kevin's list for the buyer side - even though about half of<BR>>>> the<BR>>>> messages on this list relate to TLUDs, with all TLUD purveyors well<BR>>>> aware<BR>>>> that charcoal can be sold by TLUD stove users. Both of Kevin's lists<BR>>>> are<BR>>>> below<BR>>>><BR>>>> 3. Kevin mention's Cecil Cook doing interviews on consumer stove<BR>>>> preferences. Anyone know if making money while cooking was a stove-user<BR>>>> question that Cecil asked?<BR>>>><BR>>>> Ron<BR>>>>
------------------------------<BR>>>> *From: *"Kevin" <<A href="" ymailto="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</A>><BR>>>> *To: *"Paul Anderson" <<A href="" ymailto="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</A>>, "Discussion of biomass<BR>>>> cooking stoves" <<A href="" ymailto="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>><BR>>>> *Sent: *Sunday, July 7, 2013 2:27:19 AM<BR>>>><BR>>>> *Subject: *Re: [Stoves] Designing for the affluent AND the poor....<BR>>>> this<BR>>>> is NOT Re: ocean acidification<BR>>>><BR>>>> Dear Paul<BR>>>> ----- Original Message -----<BR>>>> From: "Paul Anderson" <<A href="" ymailto="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</A>><BR>>>> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <<BR>>>> <A
href="" ymailto="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>><BR>>>> Cc: "Kevin" <<A href="" ymailto="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</A>><BR>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2013 4:26 PM<BR>>>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Designing for the affluent AND the poor.... this<BR>>>> is<BR>>>> NOT Re: ocean acidification<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>> Kevin and all,<BR>>>><BR>>>> ><BR>>>> > Should it [Stoves List discussion] be driven by "Producer Push" or<BR>>>> > "Customer Pull"?<BR>>>> Considering that "customers" (local people in poverty, not NGOs) are so<BR>>>> few on this Listserv, the very worthy attention to "Customer Pull" is<BR>>>> likely to be viewed through the eyes of the "Producers".<BR>>>><BR>>>> # An astute Producer will find out what the
Customer REALLY wants, and<BR>>>> will<BR>>>> configure his Product Offering to meet the wants to the greatest<BR>>>> extent<BR>>>> possible. Stove design involves compromises, and the trick is to get as<BR>>>> many<BR>>>> of the wanted features as is possible, without building in "unwanted<BR>>>> features", such as "too costly", "too flimsy", "unacceptably ugly", too<BR>>>> unsafe", etc.<BR>>>><BR>>>> I think that Producer Push is not as bad as it is thought to be, at<BR>>>> least not when by Producers who have substantial overseas experience<BR>>>> and<BR>>>> are not driven by the monetary reward.<BR>>>><BR>>>> # "Prioducer Push" can be both "good" and "bad". It is "good" if the<BR>>>> producer aagressively and effectively promotes a product that<BR>>>> accurately<BR>>>> addresses the
Customer Wants. It is "bad" when the Producer<BR>>>> incorporates<BR>>>> features that are now wanted by the Customer.<BR>>>><BR>>>> Example: When the target Customers are quite unaware of some advances<BR>>>> that could be beneficial to them, there is zero "pull". And any<BR>>>> attempts<BR>>>> to inform them of such advances would certainly be a form of Producer<BR>>>> Push or Push from Outside of their societies.<BR>>>><BR>>>> # This is where work of the calibre being done by Cecil is so<BR>>>> important.<BR>>>> He<BR>>>> sets out to identify the features of a stove that are REALLY important<BR>>>> to<BR>>>> the customer. Then, a Stove Producer can configure a Stove Product that<BR>>>> best<BR>>>> meets the "Customer Wants". This is where the Stove producer can shine,<BR>>>>
with<BR>>>> new technology, better materials, better design, etc.<BR>>>><BR>>>> # The 'Policy People" at "Head Office" may want to Customer to buy a<BR>>>> stove<BR>>>> that reduces "Ocean Acidification", or "Improves climate Conditions",<BR>>>> or<BR>>>> "Produces Char", but if the Customer does not want these features, the<BR>>>> stove<BR>>>> will not sell. Clearly, with so many potential Customers out there,<BR>>>> some<BR>>>> will want these features, and will be willing to pay for them. While<BR>>>> most<BR>>>> people buy bicycles, there is still a market for unicycles, but it is a<BR>>>> small percentage of the bicycle market. This is where "Producer Push"<BR>>>> can<BR>>>> go<BR>>>> wrong.<BR>>>><BR>>>> Best wishes,<BR>>>><BR>>>>
Kevin<BR>>>><BR>>>> Paul<BR>>>><BR>>>> Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"<BR>>>> Email: <A href="" ymailto="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</A> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072<BR>>>> Website: www.drtlud.com<BR>>>><BR>>>> On 7/6/2013 8:41 AM, Kevin wrote:<BR>>>> > Dear Paul<BR>>>> ><BR>>>> > This is the STOVES list.<BR>>>> ><BR>>>> > Should it be driven by "Producer Push" or "Customer Pull"?<BR>>>> ><BR>>>> > I would suggest the Stoves List should be driven by "Customer Pull."<BR>>>> ><BR>>>> > The Boy Scout who helps the proverbial "Little Old Lady" across the<BR>>>> street<BR>>>> > does a good deed only when the Little Old Lady" wanted to go across<BR>>>> the<BR>>>> >
street.<BR>>>> ><BR>>>> > In my opinion, the Stoves List should focus on providing Stove<BR>>>> Customers<BR>>>> > with what they want.<BR>>>> ><BR>>>> > Just what do "Stove Customers" want?<BR>>>> ><BR>>>> > There are many facets to "Stoves". There is no such thing as "THE<BR>>>> perfect<BR>>>> > stove", but there are as many "perfect stoves" as there are stoves<BR>>>> that<BR>>>> > perfectly meet the wants and needs of the Stove Customer.<BR>>>> ><BR>>>> > Some factors that may be of importance to Stove Customers are:<BR>>>> > * Initial cost<BR>>>> > * Portability<BR>>>> > * Appearance<BR>>>> > * Cooking capability<BR>>>> > * Space heating capability<BR>>>> > * Fuel efficiency<BR>>>> > *
Durability<BR>>>> > * Visual access to flame<BR>>>> > * Pride of ownership<BR>>>> > * Cleanliness<BR>>>> > * Safety<BR>>>> > * Smoke free living space<BR>>>> > * Particulate free living space<BR>>>> > * Etc.<BR>>>> ><BR>>>> > There are MANY more factors of importance to the Stove Customer.<BR>>>> There<BR>>>> are<BR>>>> > MANY, MANY combinations of factors that are of importance to Stove<BR>>>> > Customers.<BR>>>> ><BR>>>> > Stove Producers produce stoves for many different motivations. Some<BR>>>> > motivations or "drivers" include:<BR>>>> > * To make money<BR>>>> > * To feel good<BR>>>> > * To do good<BR>>>> > * To create a market for a particular fuel or technology<BR>>>> > * To create an economic base for
community development<BR>>>> > * To address a health concern<BR>>>> > * To address an Environmental Concern<BR>>>> > * To further another Agenda<BR>>>> > * Etc.<BR>>>> ><BR>>>> > To the extent that the interests of the Customer and the Producer<BR>>>> overlap,<BR>>>> > their mutual interests will be served.<BR>>>> ><BR>>>> > Perhaps there should also be a "Stoves Policy List", where the<BR>>>> interests<BR>>>> > and agendas of Stove Promoters and Producers were discussed, and<BR>>>> perhaps<BR>>>> > the "Stoves List" should focus more on the interests of the Stove<BR>>>> > Customers?<BR>>>> ><BR>>>> > What do you think?<BR>>>> ><BR>>>> > Best wishes,<BR>>>> ><BR>>>> > Kevin<BR>>>> ><BR>>>> >
----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Anderson"<BR>>>> <<A href="" ymailto="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</A>><BR>>>> > To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"<BR>>>> > <<A href="" ymailto="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>><BR>>>> > Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2013 1:54 AM<BR>>>> > Subject: [Stoves] Designing for the affluent AND the poor.... this is<BR>>>> NOT<BR>>>> > Re: ocean acidification<BR>>>> ><BR>>>> ><BR>>>> > Thank you Richard and Andrew,<BR>>>> ><BR>>>> > I agree with your comments below EXCEPT that you did not change the<BR>>>> > Subject line. And therefore List readers who are fed up with the<BR>>>> > oceanic acidity discussion are unlikely to have read your comments.<BR>>>> By<BR>>>>
> the way, I did NOT read those messages. But I do read whatever<BR>>>> Andrew<BR>>>> > and Richard contribute to the Listserv.<BR>>>> ><BR>>>> > Now, about designs for the affluent AND the poor. This relates to<BR>>>> > "trickle down technology" that believes that by helping the rich, the<BR>>>> > poor will benefit..... EVENTUALLY benefit. Sure. a few years or<BR>>>> > decades or lifetimes later.<BR>>>> ><BR>>>> > I am glad that affluent societies financially supported cell/mobile<BR>>>> > phone development. A great example of trickle down technology coming<BR>>>> > rather quickly. But it reached the poor societies because business<BR>>>> > found that it could make money off of the needs of poor people to<BR>>>> also<BR>>>> > communicate. And
microchips etc are really inexpensive. We are<BR>>>> > unlikely to see similar benefits relating to cookstoves.<BR>>>> ><BR>>>> > Even as it is today, MUCH of stove work/efforts are targeted to the<BR>>>> more<BR>>>> > affluent of the poor, those who are in the upper parts of the BASE of<BR>>>> > the pyramid (BOP). That makes more sense than trying to get biomass<BR>>>> > fuel stoves into typical American and European households. But that<BR>>>> > approach (well established and supported by the GACC and the World<BR>>>> Bank<BR>>>> > ACESS programs) still leaves a massive lack of attention to the needs<BR>>>> of<BR>>>> > the true base of the BOP. But at least the distance to trickle down<BR>>>> > from the upper BOP to the lower BOP is less (and should be faster)<BR>>>>
than<BR>>>> > trickle down from the Top of the Pyramid to be base of the BOP.<BR>>>> ><BR>>>> > If you decide to reply to this Thread of messages, please stick to<BR>>>> this<BR>>>> > topic. (Or change the Subject line to reflect what you are actually<BR>>>> > talking about. After all, the Subject line has at least two<BR>>>> > purposes: One is to continue the Thread, and the other is to inform<BR>>>> > the reader what is the actual subject being discussed.)<BR>>>> ><BR>>>> > Paul with 4 more days in Uganda, then I bring home over 300<BR>>>> pounds<BR>>>> > of stove progress (available baggage allowance for 3 people) to show<BR>>>> at<BR>>>> > Stove Camps and biochar meetings in late July, early Sept and mid<BR>>>> > October in Oregon, Tennessee,
and Massachusetts, respectively. I<BR>>>> hope<BR>>>> > to see many of you as I cross the USA by car from my home base in<BR>>>> > Illinois.<BR>>>> ><BR>>>> ><BR>>>> ><BR>>>> ><BR>>>> > Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"<BR>>>> > Email: <A href="" ymailto="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</A> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072<BR>>>> > Website: www.drtlud.com<BR>>>> ><BR>>>> > On 7/5/2013 7:01 PM, Richard Stanley wrote:<BR>>>> >> Hi Andrew.<BR>>>> >><BR>>>> >> Climate "discussions" aside, I wanted to elaborate on the<BR>>>> implications<BR>>>> >> of your observation about where" designing" is easier:<BR>>>> >> I agree with you that it is easier to design anything
"for<BR>>>> someone"<BR>>>> (<BR>>>> >> especially those less equipped to express their opinions and<BR>>>> experiences,<BR>>>> >> needs and resources)…... than to do it with them in their context…<BR>>>> >><BR>>>> >> My own experience tells me that the latter is the sticky part that<BR>>>> few<BR>>>> >> really want to get into and it's a huge part of determining whether<BR>>>> or<BR>>>> >> not ones best intentions stick or not. That sticky part makes really<BR>>>> >> designing from within a good bit more challenging that simply<BR>>>> designing a<BR>>>> >> technical object and selling it here….<BR>>>> >><BR>>>> >> Richard Stanley<BR>>>> >> NW part of the Americas<BR>>>> >> ==================<BR>>>> >>
On Jul 4, 2013, at 12:14 AM, <A href="" ymailto="mailto:ajheggie@gmail.com">ajheggie@gmail.com</A> wrote:<BR>>>> >><BR>>>> >> [Default] On Thu, 4 Jul 2013 05:41:33 +0700,Paul Olivier<BR>>>> >> <<A href="" ymailto="mailto:paul.olivier@esrla.com">paul.olivier@esrla.com</A>> wrote:<BR>>>> >><BR>>>> >>> It is easy to design stoves for poor people in Third World<BR>>>> countries.<BR>>>> It<BR>>>> >>> is<BR>>>> >>> a much bigger challenge to design them for use each day in our own<BR>>>> >>> kitchens.<BR>>>> >> Stove design and use is on topic for [stoves] but there are other<BR>>>> >> forums on which it is better to discuss world changing effects,<BR>>>> >> important as they might be.<BR>>>> >><BR>>>> >> AJH<BR>>>>
>><BR>>>> >> _______________________________________________<BR>>>> >> Stoves mailing list<BR>>>> >><BR>>>> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<BR>>>> >> <A href="" ymailto="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR>>>> >><BR>>>> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<BR>>>> >><BR>>>> <A href="" target=_blank>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR>>>> >><BR>>>> >> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web<BR>>>> site:<BR>>>> >> <A href="" target=_blank>http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</A><BR>>>> >><BR>>>> >><BR>>>> >><BR>>>> >>
_______________________________________________<BR>>>> >> Stoves mailing list<BR>>>> >><BR>>>> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<BR>>>> >> <A href="" ymailto="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR>>>> >><BR>>>> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<BR>>>> >><BR>>>> <A href="" target=_blank>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR>>>> >><BR>>>> >> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web<BR>>>> site:<BR>>>> >> <A href="" target=_blank>http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</A><BR>>>> >><BR>>>> ><BR>>>> ><BR>>>> > _______________________________________________<BR>>>> >
Stoves mailing list<BR>>>> ><BR>>>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<BR>>>> > <A href="" ymailto="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR>>>> ><BR>>>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<BR>>>> ><BR>>>> <A href="" target=_blank>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR>>>> ><BR>>>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web<BR>>>> site:<BR>>>> > <A href="" target=_blank>http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</A><BR>>>> ><BR>>>> ><BR>>>> > _______________________________________________<BR>>>> > Stoves mailing list<BR>>>> ><BR>>>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<BR>>>>
> <A href="" ymailto="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR>>>> ><BR>>>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<BR>>>> ><BR>>>> <A href="" target=_blank>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR>>>> ><BR>>>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web<BR>>>> site:<BR>>>> > <A href="" target=_blank>http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</A><BR>>>> ><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>> _______________________________________________<BR>>>> Stoves mailing list<BR>>>><BR>>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<BR>>>> <A href="" ymailto="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR>>>><BR>>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE
or Change your List Settings use the web page<BR>>>><BR>>>> <A href="" target=_blank>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR>>>><BR>>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web<BR>>>> site:<BR>>>> <A href="" target=_blank>http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</A><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>> _______________________________________________<BR>>>> Stoves mailing list<BR>>>><BR>>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<BR>>>> <A href="" ymailto="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR>>>><BR>>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<BR>>>><BR>>>> <A href=""
target=_blank>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR>>>><BR>>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web<BR>>>> site:<BR>>>> <A href="" target=_blank>http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</A><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> Stoves mailing list<BR>><BR>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<BR>> <A href="" ymailto="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR>><BR>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<BR>> <A href="" target=_blank>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR>><BR>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<BR>> <A href=""
target=_blank>http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</A><BR>><BR>><BR><BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Stoves mailing list<BR><BR>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<BR><A href="" ymailto="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR><BR>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<BR><A href="" target=_blank>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR><BR>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<BR><A href="" target=_blank>http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/ </A><BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Stoves mailing list<BR><BR>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<BR><A href="" ymailto="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR><BR>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<BR><A
href="" target=_blank>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR><BR>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<BR><A href="" target=_blank>http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</A><BR><BR><BR><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></div></body></html>