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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Gustavo,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>They open for me. Try again. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Tom<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><a name="_MailEndCompose"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></a></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Inversiones Falcon<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, July 14, 2013 8:43 AM<br><b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Designing for the affluent AND the poor.... this is NOT Re: ocean acidification<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>I could not open your files.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Gus<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> Rebecca A. Vermeer <<a href="mailto:ravermeer@telus.net">ravermeer@telus.net</a>><br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a> <br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, July 13, 2013 11:42 PM<br><b>Subject:</b> [Stoves] Designing for the affluent AND the poor.... this is NOT Re: ocean acidification</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><span style='color:black'><br>Dear Stovers,<br>Let me introduce a kiln-fired clay stove from the Philippines that was <br>designed for the poor but ended up benefiting the middle class and the <br>affluent because of sky-rocketing LPG prices. Within the last 6 months, <br>LPG prices in Dumaguete City, Philippines have fluctuated between US$1.70/kg <br>and $3.17/kg. Even when priced below 50% of production costs (500 pesos or <br>US$11.54 ), the poor cannot afford it.<br><br>The stove is the ECO-KALAN-C. One stove can cook food for a small household <br>or a crowd of 100 people. In a recent birthday celebration at Felipa <br>Beach, Philippines, the ECO-KALAN-C cooked 83.5 kg of food (PORK & BEANS <br>= 37.25 kg; PANCIT (noodles, meat & vegetables) = 12.25 kg; FISH = 4.25 <br>kg; and RICE = 29.75 kg ) in 3 1/2 hours of continuous cooking using 6.95 <br>kg of wood valued at 31.21 pesos (US$ 0.72). See TABLE 6 and the <br>Attributes of this stove in the link below:<br><br>COOKING ON ECO-KALAN-C (for Belle's Birthday Party)<br><a href="" target="_blank">https://plus.google.com/photos/113101643783889350444/albums/5900103819444327585</a><br><br>At its subsidized price of 500 pesos, the payback period for this stove is <br>less than a month, even for small families.<br><br>If interested to know more about the Project , please take a look at the <br>link below. I would appreciate ideas on how to bring the cost of producing <br>the ECO-KALAN to affordable & sustainable level. Thank you.<br><br>ECO-KALAN PROJECT IN THE PHILIPPINES<br>Presented to the Rotary Club of Sidney, British Columbia, Canada<br><a href="" target="_blank">https://plus.google.com/photos/113101643783889350444/albums/5898258706868741537</a><br><br>Regards,<br>Rebecca Vermeer<br>email: <span class=MsoHyperlink>ravermeer@telus.net</span><br><br>-----Original Message----- <br>From: M. Nurhuda<br>Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2013 6:41 PM<br>To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>Subject: Re: [Stoves] Designing for the affluent AND the poor.... this is <br>NOT Re: ocean acidification<br><br>Dear Cecil,<br><br>Thank for report.<br>Let me comment about the LPG.<br><br>As you might know, around 60% of LPG national demands are imported,<br>particularly from Aramco. Around 30% are distilled in Indonesian refinery<br>facility, but the crude oils are imported from other country. Therefore,<br>the economical price of LPG should be at least Rp. 10.000,-/kg or US$<br>1/kg, with assumption that the LPG trading is tax free. However, people<br>get the LPG at price of Rp. 4500/kg.<br><br>In the last time, there were some discourses to replace LPG with Dimethil<br>Ether (DME), but we will see whether the next new president tends to be<br>populists, at all cost.<br><br>In my personal opinion, if should be not a problem with such populist<br>energy policy if we were still oil exporter country, as 20 year ago, but<br>in fact, we are now nett oil importer country. Around 500.000-800.0000<br>barrels/day (nett) oils are now imported.<br><br>Kind regards<br>M. Nurhuda<br>(East Java, Indonesia)<br><br><br><br><br>> Continuing my contribution:<br>><br>> Interestingly, with the arrival of electricity in most villages and the<br>> governments roll out of 55 million free LPG stove/3 kg canister kits<br>> several remarkable changes in rural kitchens are taking place:<br>><br>> (i.) better off families are buying electric rice steamers which they<br>> uses<br>> regularly thereby reducing the household cooking load by about 25%;<br>> (ii.) making limited use of the LPG stove (some families use less than 3<br>> kg<br>> of LPG a month) for quick cooking tasks such as reheating cold food, quick<br>> frying tofu and tempe, heating small amounts of water for tea, stir frying<br>> veggies, etc. The average use of LPG is about 6kg per month which only<br>> costs $.50 a kg because the government subsidizes the cost by +/- $.50 per<br>> kg. The point is that households minimize their expenditure for LPG by<br>> deciding what stove work tasks they perform using free biomass and what<br>> tasks they perform using subsidized electricity and LPG.<br>> (iii.) heavy stove work tasks like boiling 20 litres of palm nectar down<br>> to<br>> 2 kgs of sugar which can take up to 3 hours is done using the traditional<br>> high powered stove fueled by free (collected) biomass<br>> (iv.) the introduction of the electric rice cooker and the LPG stove has<br>> made it possible for rural families to separate between the dirty part of<br>> the kitchen where the big pots and woks used for home industries are soot<br>> covered and a clean section or corner of the kitchen organized around the<br>> LPG stove and rice cooker where the pots are all scrubbed clean.<br>><br>> What I observed in Yogyakarta Province is that the percentage of stove<br>> work<br>> performed using biomass decreases as one moves from deep rural areas into<br>> the peri-rural towns and peri-urban zones. Households adjust their stoves<br>> and energy carriers to their income, kitchen sizes, and the availability<br>> of<br>> free biomass fuel.<br>><br>> The World Bank is now carrying out a many paged questionnaire to attempt<br>> to<br>> differentiate the geographical zones and economic levels of the biomass<br>> economy in Yogyakarta. It turns out to be very complex. Strangely, urban<br>> families who no longer cook with biomass in their small urban kitchens,<br>> continue to eat traditional foods prepared with biomass because there are<br>> thousands of small vendors of traditional and regional foods available<br>> nearby or on their doorsteps. A significant percentage of the biomass<br>> economy has moved out of the small urban kitchen and has been taken over<br>> by<br>> small vendors and restaurants in the street. In Yogyakarta there is a<br>> food<br>> vendor every 50 meters of urban corridor.<br>><br>> The complexity of the provincial biomass economy is caused by the fact<br>> that<br>> there are about 10 different major biomass stove using constituencies<br>> which<br>> expect their stoves to perform specific functions well. Some food vendors<br>> use charcoal, firewood, LPG and electricity cooking technologies and<br>> energy<br>> carriers to prepare food for sale to customers.<br>><br>> In Indonesia with its 250 000 000 people and +/- 65 million households, I<br>> estimate there are more than 100 million biomass stoves in use. These 100<br>> million biomass stoves are divided up among farming households who mainly<br>> use them for household cooking and ceremonial functions, households that<br>> use stoves to process crops and generate revenue, peri-rural/peri-urban<br>> (intermediate) households which use biomass to minimize expenditure on<br>> LPG,<br>> food vendors in all zones who prepare large volumes of food for sale,<br>> urban<br>> households that have converted entirely to a clean kitchen using<br>> electricity and LPG that still buys traditional foods from street vendors<br>> and small restaurants. Each of these different stove use constituency has<br>> its own preferences in terms of what stove work functions it prioritizes.<br>> In such a potentially enormous biomass stove market as Indonesia, it will<br>> be necessary for designer, producers and marketers to target specific<br>> stove<br>> using communities. We need to first understand what stove work functions<br>> they use their stoves to perform and once we know how well their<br>> traditional stoves perform these functions we can begin to design and<br>> produce stoves that out perform the baseline stove technologies.<br>><br>> Hope these remarks do not give you a headache. Anthropologists have a bad<br>> reputation because we tend to make solutions that work for the people more<br>> complex and difficult to deliver. It turns out that reality is normally<br>> more complex than we want it to be.<br>><br>> In service,<br>><br>> Cecil<br>><br>> In service,<br>><br>><br>> On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 5:47 PM, Cecil Cook <<span class=MsoHyperlink>cec1863@gmail.com</span>> wrote:<br>><br>>> Dear stovers,<br>>><br>>> Ron asks:<br>>> *Kevin mention's Cecil Cook doing interviews on consumer stove<br>>> preferences. Anyone know if making money while cooking was a stove-user<br>>> question that Cecil asked?*<br>>><br>>> The World Bank is currently conducting a many paged questionnaire to<br>>> identify the full spectrum of stove use and stove work functions in a<br>>> range<br>>> of different stove use constituencies. My fieldwork in agricultural<br>>> villages in Yogyakarta and Central Java clearly indicated that<br>>> traditional<br>>> self constructed multi-pothole stoves are used for the following<br>>> functions:<br>>><br>>> 1. household cooking and water heating (for bathing and<br>>> pasteurization) (2 pots cooking/heating at the same time) ,<br>>> 2. income generation (making palm sugar, frying chips, crackers and<br>>> other snack foods for sale),<br>>> 3. drying crops such as corn, peanuts, root crops, herbs for home use<br>>> and sale on racks above the stove,<br>>> 4. space heating in households that are more than 500 meter ASL,<br>>> 5. drying damp firewood and clothes during the rainy season,<br>>> 6. cooking large quantities of food to feed the extended family<br>>> (woks/pots with 10 to 20 litres of water to boil meat, cook rice,<br>>> cook<br>>> soups and vegetables) at wedding, funerals (7 observances over 3<br>>> years),<br>>> and village gatherings (the stove needs to be big enough to deliver<br>>> 10 to<br>>> 15 kW of power to the pot),<br>>> 7. creating a social hearth or focus for the household including<br>>> emitting enough flickering light to cook by<br>>><br>>> So the traditional stove is versatile multi-functional 'workhorse'.<br>>><br>>> Interestingly, with the arrival of electricity in most villages and the<br>>> governments roll out of 55 million free LPG stove/3 kg canister kits<br>>> several remarkable changes in rural kitchens are taking place:<br>>><br>>> (i.)<br>>><br>>><br>>> On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 11:36 AM, <<span class=MsoHyperlink>rongretlarson@comcast.net</span>> wrote:<br>>><br>>>> Kevin, Paul, Steve, AD, List etal<br>>>><br>>>> 1. I concur with Steve Taylor re congratulating AD (in message just<br>>>> received in this thread) for wisdom on developing country desires to<br>>>> emulate developed countries on consumer products. I believe we can go<br>>>> further and say this applies to incomes.<br>>>><br>>>> 2. Mainly I write to note that Kevin (appropriately) places making<br>>>> money first on the producer side of the seller-buyer lists. But it<br>>>> appears<br>>>> nowhere on Kevin's list for the buyer side - even though about half of<br>>>> the<br>>>> messages on this list relate to TLUDs, with all TLUD purveyors well<br>>>> aware<br>>>> that charcoal can be sold by TLUD stove users. Both of Kevin's lists<br>>>> are<br>>>> below<br>>>><br>>>> 3. Kevin mention's Cecil Cook doing interviews on consumer stove<br>>>> preferences. Anyone know if making money while cooking was a stove-user<br>>>> question that Cecil asked?<br>>>><br>>>> Ron<br>>>> ------------------------------<br>>>> *From: *"Kevin" <<span class=MsoHyperlink>kchisholm@ca.inter.net</span>><br>>>> *To: *"Paul Anderson" <<span class=MsoHyperlink>psanders@ilstu.edu</span>>, "Discussion of biomass<br>>>> cooking stoves" <<span class=MsoHyperlink>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</span>><br>>>> *Sent: *Sunday, July 7, 2013 2:27:19 AM<br>>>><br>>>> *Subject: *Re: [Stoves] Designing for the affluent AND the poor....<br>>>> this<br>>>> is NOT Re: ocean acidification<br>>>><br>>>> Dear Paul<br>>>> ----- Original Message -----<br>>>> From: "Paul Anderson" <<span class=MsoHyperlink>psanders@ilstu.edu</span>><br>>>> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <<br>>>> <span class=MsoHyperlink>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</span>><br>>>> Cc: "Kevin" <<span class=MsoHyperlink>kchisholm@ca.inter.net</span>><br>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2013 4:26 PM<br>>>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Designing for the affluent AND the poor.... this<br>>>> is<br>>>> NOT Re: ocean acidification<br>>>><br>>>><br>>>> Kevin and all,<br>>>><br>>>> ><br>>>> > Should it [Stoves List discussion] be driven by "Producer Push" or<br>>>> > "Customer Pull"?<br>>>> Considering that "customers" (local people in poverty, not NGOs) are so<br>>>> few on this Listserv, the very worthy attention to "Customer Pull" is<br>>>> likely to be viewed through the eyes of the "Producers".<br>>>><br>>>> # An astute Producer will find out what the Customer REALLY wants, and<br>>>> will<br>>>> configure his Product Offering to meet the wants to the greatest<br>>>> extent<br>>>> possible. Stove design involves compromises, and the trick is to get as<br>>>> many<br>>>> of the wanted features as is possible, without building in "unwanted<br>>>> features", such as "too costly", "too flimsy", "unacceptably ugly", too<br>>>> unsafe", etc.<br>>>><br>>>> I think that Producer Push is not as bad as it is thought to be, at<br>>>> least not when by Producers who have substantial overseas experience<br>>>> and<br>>>> are not driven by the monetary reward.<br>>>><br>>>> # "Prioducer Push" can be both "good" and "bad". It is "good" if the<br>>>> producer aagressively and effectively promotes a product that<br>>>> accurately<br>>>> addresses the Customer Wants. It is "bad" when the Producer<br>>>> incorporates<br>>>> features that are now wanted by the Customer.<br>>>><br>>>> Example: When the target Customers are quite unaware of some advances<br>>>> that could be beneficial to them, there is zero "pull". And any<br>>>> attempts<br>>>> to inform them of such advances would certainly be a form of Producer<br>>>> Push or Push from Outside of their societies.<br>>>><br>>>> # This is where work of the calibre being done by Cecil is so<br>>>> important.<br>>>> He<br>>>> sets out to identify the features of a stove that are REALLY important<br>>>> to<br>>>> the customer. Then, a Stove Producer can configure a Stove Product that<br>>>> best<br>>>> meets the "Customer Wants". This is where the Stove producer can shine,<br>>>> with<br>>>> new technology, better materials, better design, etc.<br>>>><br>>>> # The 'Policy People" at "Head Office" may want to Customer to buy a<br>>>> stove<br>>>> that reduces "Ocean Acidification", or "Improves climate Conditions",<br>>>> or<br>>>> "Produces Char", but if the Customer does not want these features, the<br>>>> stove<br>>>> will not sell. Clearly, with so many potential Customers out there,<br>>>> some<br>>>> will want these features, and will be willing to pay for them. While<br>>>> most<br>>>> people buy bicycles, there is still a market for unicycles, but it is a<br>>>> small percentage of the bicycle market. This is where "Producer Push"<br>>>> can<br>>>> go<br>>>> wrong.<br>>>><br>>>> Best wishes,<br>>>><br>>>> Kevin<br>>>><br>>>> Paul<br>>>><br>>>> Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"<br>>>> Email: <span class=MsoHyperlink>psanders@ilstu.edu</span> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072<br>>>> Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a><br>>>><br>>>> On 7/6/2013 8:41 AM, Kevin wrote:<br>>>> > Dear Paul<br>>>> ><br>>>> > This is the STOVES list.<br>>>> ><br>>>> > Should it be driven by "Producer Push" or "Customer Pull"?<br>>>> ><br>>>> > I would suggest the Stoves List should be driven by "Customer Pull."<br>>>> ><br>>>> > The Boy Scout who helps the proverbial "Little Old Lady" across the<br>>>> street<br>>>> > does a good deed only when the Little Old Lady" wanted to go across<br>>>> the<br>>>> > street.<br>>>> ><br>>>> > In my opinion, the Stoves List should focus on providing Stove<br>>>> Customers<br>>>> > with what they want.<br>>>> ><br>>>> > Just what do "Stove Customers" want?<br>>>> ><br>>>> > There are many facets to "Stoves". There is no such thing as "THE<br>>>> perfect<br>>>> > stove", but there are as many "perfect stoves" as there are stoves<br>>>> that<br>>>> > perfectly meet the wants and needs of the Stove Customer.<br>>>> ><br>>>> > Some factors that may be of importance to Stove Customers are:<br>>>> > * Initial cost<br>>>> > * Portability<br>>>> > * Appearance<br>>>> > * Cooking capability<br>>>> > * Space heating capability<br>>>> > * Fuel efficiency<br>>>> > * Durability<br>>>> > * Visual access to flame<br>>>> > * Pride of ownership<br>>>> > * Cleanliness<br>>>> > * Safety<br>>>> > * Smoke free living space<br>>>> > * Particulate free living space<br>>>> > * Etc.<br>>>> ><br>>>> > There are MANY more factors of importance to the Stove Customer.<br>>>> There<br>>>> are<br>>>> > MANY, MANY combinations of factors that are of importance to Stove<br>>>> > Customers.<br>>>> ><br>>>> > Stove Producers produce stoves for many different motivations. Some<br>>>> > motivations or "drivers" include:<br>>>> > * To make money<br>>>> > * To feel good<br>>>> > * To do good<br>>>> > * To create a market for a particular fuel or technology<br>>>> > * To create an economic base for community development<br>>>> > * To address a health concern<br>>>> > * To address an Environmental Concern<br>>>> > * To further another Agenda<br>>>> > * Etc.<br>>>> ><br>>>> > To the extent that the interests of the Customer and the Producer<br>>>> overlap,<br>>>> > their mutual interests will be served.<br>>>> ><br>>>> > Perhaps there should also be a "Stoves Policy List", where the<br>>>> interests<br>>>> > and agendas of Stove Promoters and Producers were discussed, and<br>>>> perhaps<br>>>> > the "Stoves List" should focus more on the interests of the Stove<br>>>> > Customers?<br>>>> ><br>>>> > What do you think?<br>>>> ><br>>>> > Best wishes,<br>>>> ><br>>>> > Kevin<br>>>> ><br>>>> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Anderson"<br>>>> <<span class=MsoHyperlink>psanders@ilstu.edu</span>><br>>>> > To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"<br>>>> > <<span class=MsoHyperlink>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</span>><br>>>> > Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2013 1:54 AM<br>>>> > Subject: [Stoves] Designing for the affluent AND the poor.... this is<br>>>> NOT<br>>>> > Re: ocean acidification<br>>>> ><br>>>> ><br>>>> > Thank you Richard and Andrew,<br>>>> ><br>>>> > I agree with your comments below EXCEPT that you did not change the<br>>>> > Subject line. And therefore List readers who are fed up with the<br>>>> > oceanic acidity discussion are unlikely to have read your comments.<br>>>> By<br>>>> > the way, I did NOT read those messages. But I do read whatever<br>>>> Andrew<br>>>> > and Richard contribute to the Listserv.<br>>>> ><br>>>> > Now, about designs for the affluent AND the poor. This relates to<br>>>> > "trickle down technology" that believes that by helping the rich, the<br>>>> > poor will benefit..... EVENTUALLY benefit. Sure. a few years or<br>>>> > decades or lifetimes later.<br>>>> ><br>>>> > I am glad that affluent societies financially supported cell/mobile<br>>>> > phone development. A great example of trickle down technology coming<br>>>> > rather quickly. But it reached the poor societies because business<br>>>> > found that it could make money off of the needs of poor people to<br>>>> also<br>>>> > communicate. And microchips etc are really inexpensive. We are<br>>>> > unlikely to see similar benefits relating to cookstoves.<br>>>> ><br>>>> > Even as it is today, MUCH of stove work/efforts are targeted to the<br>>>> more<br>>>> > affluent of the poor, those who are in the upper parts of the BASE of<br>>>> > the pyramid (BOP). That makes more sense than trying to get biomass<br>>>> > fuel stoves into typical American and European households. But that<br>>>> > approach (well established and supported by the GACC and the World<br>>>> Bank<br>>>> > ACESS programs) still leaves a massive lack of attention to the needs<br>>>> of<br>>>> > the true base of the BOP. But at least the distance to trickle down<br>>>> > from the upper BOP to the lower BOP is less (and should be faster)<br>>>> than<br>>>> > trickle down from the Top of the Pyramid to be base of the BOP.<br>>>> ><br>>>> > If you decide to reply to this Thread of messages, please stick to<br>>>> this<br>>>> > topic. (Or change the Subject line to reflect what you are actually<br>>>> > talking about. After all, the Subject line has at least two<br>>>> > purposes: One is to continue the Thread, and the other is to inform<br>>>> > the reader what is the actual subject being discussed.)<br>>>> ><br>>>> > Paul with 4 more days in Uganda, then I bring home over 300<br>>>> pounds<br>>>> > of stove progress (available baggage allowance for 3 people) to show<br>>>> at<br>>>> > Stove Camps and biochar meetings in late July, early Sept and mid<br>>>> > October in Oregon, Tennessee, and Massachusetts, respectively. I<br>>>> hope<br>>>> > to see many of you as I cross the USA by car from my home base in<br>>>> > Illinois.<br>>>> ><br>>>> ><br>>>> ><br>>>> ><br>>>> > Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"<br>>>> > Email: <span class=MsoHyperlink>psanders@ilstu.edu</span> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072<br>>>> > Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a><br>>>> ><br>>>> > On 7/5/2013 7:01 PM, Richard Stanley wrote:<br>>>> >> Hi Andrew.<br>>>> >><br>>>> >> Climate "discussions" aside, I wanted to elaborate on the<br>>>> implications<br>>>> >> of your observation about where" designing" is easier:<br>>>> >> I agree with you that it is easier to design anything "for<br>>>> someone"<br>>>> (<br>>>> >> especially those less equipped to express their opinions and<br>>>> experiences,<br>>>> >> needs and resources)…... than to do it with them in their context…<br>>>> >><br>>>> >> My own experience tells me that the latter is the sticky part that<br>>>> few<br>>>> >> really want to get into and it's a huge part of determining whether<br>>>> or<br>>>> >> not ones best intentions stick or not. That sticky part makes really<br>>>> >> designing from within a good bit more challenging that simply<br>>>> designing a<br>>>> >> technical object and selling it here….<br>>>> >><br>>>> >> Richard Stanley<br>>>> >> NW part of the Americas<br>>>> >> ==================<br>>>> >> On Jul 4, 2013, at 12:14 AM, <span class=MsoHyperlink>ajheggie@gmail.com</span> wrote:<br>>>> >><br>>>> >> [Default] On Thu, 4 Jul 2013 05:41:33 +0700,Paul Olivier<br>>>> >> <<span class=MsoHyperlink>paul.olivier@esrla.com</span>> wrote:<br>>>> >><br>>>> >>> It is easy to design stoves for poor people in Third World<br>>>> countries.<br>>>> It<br>>>> >>> is<br>>>> >>> a much bigger challenge to design them for use each day in our own<br>>>> >>> kitchens.<br>>>> >> Stove design and use is on topic for [stoves] but there are other<br>>>> >> forums on which it is better to discuss world changing effects,<br>>>> >> important as they might be.<br>>>> >><br>>>> >> AJH<br>>>> >><br>>>> >> _______________________________________________<br>>>> >> Stoves mailing list<br>>>> >><br>>>> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>>>> >> <span class=MsoHyperlink>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</span><br>>>> >><br>>>> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>>>> >><br>>>> <a href="" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>>>> >><br>>>> >> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web<br>>>> site:<br>>>> >> <a href="" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>>>> >><br>>>> >><br>>>> >><br>>>> >> _______________________________________________<br>>>> >> Stoves mailing list<br>>>> >><br>>>> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>>>> >> <span class=MsoHyperlink>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</span><br>>>> >><br>>>> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>>>> >><br>>>> <a href="" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>>>> >><br>>>> >> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web<br>>>> site:<br>>>> >> <a href="" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>>>> >><br>>>> ><br>>>> ><br>>>> > _______________________________________________<br>>>> > Stoves mailing list<br>>>> ><br>>>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>>>> > <span class=MsoHyperlink>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</span><br>>>> ><br>>>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>>>> ><br>>>> <a href="" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>>>> ><br>>>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web<br>>>> site:<br>>>> > <a href="" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>>>> ><br>>>> ><br>>>> > _______________________________________________<br>>>> > Stoves mailing list<br>>>> ><br>>>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>>>> > <span class=MsoHyperlink>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</span><br>>>> ><br>>>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>>>> ><br>>>> <a href="" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>>>> ><br>>>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web<br>>>> site:<br>>>> > <a href="" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>>>> ><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>> _______________________________________________<br>>>> Stoves mailing list<br>>>><br>>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>>>> <span class=MsoHyperlink>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</span><br>>>><br>>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>>>><br>>>> <a href="" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>>>><br>>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web<br>>>> site:<br>>>> <a href="" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>> _______________________________________________<br>>>> Stoves mailing list<br>>>><br>>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>>>> <span class=MsoHyperlink>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</span><br>>>><br>>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>>>><br>>>> <a href="" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>>>><br>>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web<br>>>> site:<br>>>> <a href="" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>><br>> _______________________________________________<br>> Stoves mailing list<br>><br>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>> <span class=MsoHyperlink>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</span><br>><br>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>> <a href="" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>><br>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>> <a href="" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>><br>><br><br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><span class=MsoHyperlink>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</span><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br><a href="" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/ </a><br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><span class=MsoHyperlink>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</span><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br><a href="" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></body></html>