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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear Crispin</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Thanks very much for the URL for the excellent article.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>It is amazing what can be deduced using real science.
:-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>It is scary that organizations like the UN, IPCC, and
NOAA don't have competent people on staff to vet their "Ocean Acidification"
statements. When a recent Chemical Engineering Graduate can point out the folly
of "jumping on the Ocean Acidification Bandwagon", it should lead us to raise
the question:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>"What else are the UN, NOAA, and the IPCC telling us
about AGW that is wrong?"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Best wishes,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Kevin</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=crispinpigott@gmail.com href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com">Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">'Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, August 08, 2013 12:52
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] more on ocean
acidification</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">Dear
Kevin<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">Because
the topic is complicated and involves chemical formulas (to be discussed
meaningfully) I can suggest the following resource as a good into if people
really want to know about the subject.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><A
href="http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/07/08/ocean-acidi-what/">http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/07/08/ocean-acidi-what/</A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">This
provides many of the details that one needs to do their own thinking about the
matter.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">Steve
Burnett shows how to calculate the change in ocean pH as a result of
industrial activity (assuming that 100% of the CO2 increase in past years is
human in origin. The change is from pH 8.2 to pH 8.199 which is, as he points
out, unmeasurable. Thus any claim to have ‘measured a human impact’ on the pH
of the oceans is baseless.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">Steve
uses the correct but for the popular masses, slightly misleading metric of the
number of moles of hydrogen ions per litre. The misleading part is that people
are relating a change in the number of moles of hydrogen ions to ‘becoming
acidic’ in the sense that the claim is made (I have seen it often) that the
oceans are turning ‘acidic’ because of human emissions of CO2 and that this
acidic water will eat the shells off the back of many denizens of the deep. It
is this baseless and untenable bit of Hollywood that we have to oppose. No
shells are being eaten off the backs of creatures because of man-induced CO2
nor will they be. The ionic or anionic activity of the oceans could
easily be discussed in terms of alkalinity, inverting S. P. L. Sørensen’s
approach to chemical conditions. That is not important. Ultimately it is
devious double-speak that we have to oppose, not units of
convenience.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">The
relevance to stoves are several. I have in the past mentioned the use of acid
and alkaline solutions for the management and mixing of ceramic stove body
material. pH is an important factor is clay materials – not that people talk
about it much though. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">Wood
ash as you know is quite alkaline and poses a health threat if inhaled. We
have not much spoken of wood ash and its commercial uses but in West Africa
they make what is known as “Nigerian soap” which is black and soft. It is made
from animal fat and wood ash only using a simple system taught to Nigerians by
missionaries. It was effective enough to make useable soap and spread by word
of mouth over the centuries. You can still buy it at the markets in Accra and
so on.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">The
pH of the condensates from wood fires should also be a concern of ours.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">Regards<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">Crispin<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0mm; PADDING-LEFT: 0mm; PADDING-RIGHT: 0mm; BORDER-TOP: #e1e1e1 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"
lang=EN-US>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt" lang=EN-US>
Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Kevin<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, August 08, 2013 11:11 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] more on
ocean acidification<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Dear
Paul</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0mm; MARGIN: 5pt 0mm 5pt 3.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0mm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0mm">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">----- Original
Message ----- <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
title=paul.olivier@esrla.com href="mailto:paul.olivier@esrla.com">Paul
Olivier</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Thursday, August
08, 2013 9:12 AM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Re: [Stoves]
more on ocean acidification<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal>Kevin,<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>No one in the scientific community is saying that the pH
of the oceans have fallen below 7.0 and become acidic.<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"># The
statements certainly create the impression that "Anthropogenic CO2 is making
the Oceans acidic.".</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Your questions miss the point
altogether.<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"># I am
asking the question, in an attempt to put things in perspective. The issue
lacks perspective.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Please read the links I have posted.<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"># I did.
Both contain little of substance, but rather, seem to be "an embarkation on
studies to see if we have a problem."</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">The first
link <A
href="http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/03/opinion/marine-life-on-a-warming-planet.html">http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/03/opinion/marine-life-on-a-warming-planet.html</A> seems
to confirm the need for an answer to my previous
question.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">"
</SPAN>The first step will be to monitor ocean acidity with greater breadth
and accuracy and to create an acidity budget — an assessment of just how
much acidity is contributed by whom. Next it will seek to reduce carbon
pollution from land-based sources, including agricultural and urban runoff.
<SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">"</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">The
second link </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><A
href="http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO1306/S00439/un-general-assembly-to-explore-impact-of-ocean-acidification.htm">http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO1306/S00439/un-general-assembly-to-explore-impact-of-ocean-acidification.htm</A> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">is
basically an "expression of concern" with the opening paragraph
being:</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">"
</SPAN>New York, Jun 17 2013 - The United Nations General Assembly will
begin today its consideration of the impacts that the increasing
acidification of the world's oceans will have on the marine environment and
on people.<SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">"</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">It
puzzles me that if the "Ocean Acidification Problem" is so serious, why did
the UN only start to take a look at it on 17 June,
2013?</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><BR><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Please see: <A
href="http://www.pnas.org/content/106/30/12235.full">http://www.pnas.org/content/106/30/12235.full</A>,
and in particular its Fig. 2. , copied below:</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><IMG id=_x0000_i1025 border=0
src="cid:D26062EB33D44A5D87CF754C43E2EA43@usera594fda0bf" width=659
height=496><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><BR><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Note,
in the 5th panel, that the pH has dropped by .002 pH units per year in the
top 500 meters, but has INCREASED by about .0005 pH units from the 600 to
8,000 meter depth. In terms of total ocean volume, we
get</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">A: 0 to
500 meters: 500 x (-.002) = -1 </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">and
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">B: 600 to
8,000 meters: (8000-600) x (+.0005) = 7400 x +.0005 = +
3.7</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Thus when
the total "big picture" is considered, the bulk of the Oceans is
getting more alkaline, and is NOT acidifying.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"># One
could suggest that "The Alarmists" are simply revealing part of the problem,
and not showing the whole picture.This simple calculation could suggest that
what the world needs now is MORE CO2 and better mixing, to prevent pH
at depth from increasing excessively.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">This
issue is far too complex to be addressed in the shallow way that "The
Alartmist Press" treats it. Aslo, the issue is probably best moved to
another forum, like Biochar Policy, in that it has little relevance to the
Stove List.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Best
wishes,</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Kevin</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0mm; MARGIN: 5pt 0mm 5pt 3.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0mm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0mm">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Paul<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>On Thu, Aug 8, 2013 at 6:41 PM, Kevin <<A
href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net"
target=_blank>kchisholm@ca.inter.net</A>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: #cccccc 1pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0mm; PADDING-LEFT: 6pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0mm; MARGIN-LEFT: 4.8pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0mm; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0mm">
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Dear
Paul</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Crispin
indicates that the mass of the ocean is about 1.33 billion billion tons,
i.e., 1.33 x 10^12 tons. That is a lot of
water.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">The
oceans are now alkaline. Some CO2 additions will lower the pH of the
ocean, but the oceans will still be alkaline.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">How
much CO2 would be required to actually make the oceans acidic?
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">At
current rates of anthropogenic CO2 production, how long would it take for
the Oceans to actually become acidic?</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Thanks!</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: #888888"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #888888">Kevin</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: #888888"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0mm; MARGIN: 5pt 0mm 5pt 3.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0mm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0mm">
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">-----
Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
title=paul.olivier@esrla.com href="mailto:paul.olivier@esrla.com"
target=_blank>Paul Olivier</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target=_blank>Discussion
of biomass cooking stoves</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Thursday,
August 08, 2013 7:08 AM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Re: [Stoves]
more on ocean acidification<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"
class=MsoNormal>Crispin,<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal>The term that the
scientific community uses is "ocean acidification," and this is a very
real environmental problem that most people in the scientific community
do not deny.<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Many thanks.<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Paul Olivier<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>On Thu, Aug 8, 2013 at 12:27 PM, Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott <<A href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com"
target=_blank>crispinpigott@gmail.com</A>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: #cccccc 1pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0mm; PADDING-LEFT: 6pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0mm; MARGIN-LEFT: 4.8pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0mm; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0mm">
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Dear
Friends</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I
have been catching up on less important correspondence after being in
Asia for a while. There is one thing that still needs to be put down
like a broken-legged horse and that of course is the idea that
CO<SUB>2</SUB> ‘acidifies’ the ocean.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Because
this is a high school chemistry level topic and I know some of us took
other things – or as the drummer in my brothers class said, “I don’t
remember Chemistry, I was stoned that year.”</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">So
for those of you who were also stoned that year or can’t remember back
that far, here is a simple review of pH with special reference to the
oceans, CO<SUB>2</SUB> and the false, badly mis-named idea that
CO<SUB>2</SUB> ‘increases the acidity of the
oceans’.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">The
term pH refers to one of three distinct chemical conditions which bear
no relationship to each other. One is called acidity, another is
called alkalinity and third is ‘neutral’. Acidity and alkalinity are
so different that if equal in ‘strength’ they cancel each other
completely leaving a neutral condition. Different pH numbers refer to
different conditions.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Acid
solutions (it has to be a solution with water in it) have a chemistry
that has Hydrogen atoms stripped of their single electron. They are
thus positively changed and seeking an electron. This they will
happily strip out of anything passing by if they can find it, tearing
the molecules to bits in the process which is why acids ‘eat’
things.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Alkaline
solutions (again, involving water) have molecules that have an extra
electron available (but not Hydrogen) and are thus negatively charged.
They will give away an electron happily, often wrecking the object
that receives it which is why they eat things too but by a completely
different process.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Both
acidic and alkaline solutions can corrode things like metals and
rocks. One takes electrons and one gives them. Quote opposite. The two
conditions are so incompatible they cannot be present at the same time
in a mixed solution. It is one, the other or ‘neutral’ if neither
condition is present.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">If
you have an alkaline solution like the ocean (pH 7.8 - 8.4 depending
on where you are, the time of day and a host of other things) and you
want to neutralise it so that all its spare electrons are taken up by
various things, you would have to add something acidic. Adding
CO<SUB>2</SUB> by bubbling it through the seawater will convert some
of the CO<SUB>2</SUB> (about 1%) to carbonic acid which has a
deficiency of electrons and that acid will merge with whichever
passing opportunity presents itself. The corresponding alkaline
molecule will be neutralised as its spare electron will be passed to
the carbonic acid molecule (which has an H<SUP>-</SUP> in it) and
afterwards neither will have any charge. Both will be neutralised if
the charges are balanced.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Because
this happens very quickly, you cannot actually find any carbonic acid
in the ocean. Nor any other acid. The oceans are not acidic at
all. Any ocean has quite a store of available electrons.
Anything acidic you dump into the sea is quickly neutralised and the
pH drops slightly because it is closer to a neutral condition. The
oceanic capacity to hand over electrons to any passing electron gap is
very, very large. There are several processes that would begin to
offer electrons but do not because the ocean is too alkaline to allow
them to get started. The ability to do this is called the ‘buffering’
capacity. You may remember ‘Bufferin’ the pill that neutralises
stomach acid. The pill is alkaline and has a large buffering capacity
so it can hand a lot of electrons over to the acid in the stomach,
thus neutralising it. If you took a whole bottle of Bufferin pills,
your stomach would not become less and less and less acidic. It would
be neutralised and then become alkaline and remains so until the spare
electrons were taken up in a neutralising process. People are, in
general, alkaline and should eat alkaline foods to remain healthy.
Excess acid is a problem.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">By
the same measure, reducing the availability of spare electrons in the
ocean water does not <I>at all</I> make the water acidic because it
still has many more available electrons. It is less alkaline, but it
is not acidic at all – zero in the ‘acidic scale’ (there isn’t one).
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">In
order to make a convenient metric for describing these two conditions
(which can cancel each other out very predictably) the pH scale is
used. Above 7.0 the solution has available electrons and is termed
alkaline. Below 7.0 is has a deficiency of electrons and is called
‘acidic’. The reason for the use of two different terms is they are
chemically dissimilar and cannot coexist.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Acidity
of a solution is often represented by the Hydrogen equivalent
[H<SUP>+</SUP>]<SUB>T</SUB> which is the total number of Hydrogen
electrons that would be needed to neutralise it.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Alkalinity
is often expressed in terms of its equivalence to Calcium Carbonate
CACO<SUB>3</SUB> in mg/Litre.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Q.
Can CO<SUB>2</SUB> ‘acidify’ water? </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">A.
Yes, if the water is neutral to begin with, or already acidic, like
rain water. Because rain water is acidic, when it falls into the ocean
it neutralises the drops of seawater where it touches, before becoming
diluted again by the surrounding ocean. Rainwater does not impart to
the ocean any microscopic ability to withdraw electrons. It is quickly
neutralised by some seawater. When it is finished a few seconds later,
the acid has been destroyed.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Q.
If one bubbled CO<SUB>2 </SUB>through sea water, would it eventually
become acidic?</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">A.
Yes. If you were to first neutralise all the available electrons by
mopping them up, after that it would start to become acidic. It would
not considered be acidic at all until the whole body of the sample had
first been neutralised. These two conditions cannot
co-exist.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Q.
What about ‘acid rain’. </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">A.
All rain is acidic. It is acidic because fresh water absorbs CO2
rapidly from the atmosphere, converting about 1% into carbonic acid.
This falls into the oceans and reacts with the available alkaline
molecules. It is easy to acidify rain. It is very difficult to
neutralise the oceans because of the rocks upon which they sit which
have a huge, massive buffering capacity. There are numerous life
cycles of creatures that withdraw CO<SUB>2</SUB>, CO3<SUP>-2</SUP> and
HCO<SUB>3</SUB>- when it is available. Obviously CACO<SUB>3</SUB> is
high on the list for uptake by creatures that make
shells.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Q.
Which has a larger impact on ocean alkalinity: atmospheric
CO<SUB>2</SUB> or rain containing
CO<SUB>2</SUB>?</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">A.
Not clear. Rain has a big effect because oceans actually have
difficulty picking up enough CO<SUB>2</SUB> to drive the level much
above 600 ppm because of the limited surface area compared with the
volume and the huge buffering capacity. Rain is much higher -
about 1120 ppm CO<SUB>2</SUB>. Global rainfall totals about half a
million cubic kilometers per year and contains about 600 billion tons
of CO<SUB>2</SUB> which is about 20 times <A
href="http://www.global-greenhouse-warming.com/anthropogenic-climate-change.html"
target=_blank>human</A> output. </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Q.
What is the mass of the oceans?</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">A.
1.332 billion billion tons.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Q.
Do reputable scientific organisations refer to ‘acidifying’ the oceans
even though that is not, chemically, what it
happening?</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">A.
Yes. NASA <A
href="http://www.earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/OceanCarbon/"
target=_blank>does</A>. “As we burn fossil fuels and atmospheric
carbon dioxide levels go up, the ocean absorbs more carbon dioxide to
stay in balance. But this absorption has a price: these reactions
lower the water’s pH, <SPAN style="BACKGROUND: yellow">meaning it’s
more acidic</SPAN>.”</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Q.
But it is less alkaline, not more acidic. Why do they write that when
it is untrue, in fact it is unscientific?</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">A.
I don’t think anyone knows. Perhaps they too missed Chemistry in
high school.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">+++++++</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Regards<BR>Crispin</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"
lang=EN-US>Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"
lang=EN-US> Friday, July 26, 2013 3:25 PM<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Stoves]
more on ocean acidification</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><A
href="http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=noaa-scientists-embark-voyage-asses-ocean-acidification"
target=_blank>http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=noaa-scientists-embark-voyage-asses-ocean-acidification</A><BR
clear=all><BR>-- <BR>Paul A. Olivier PhD<BR>26/5 Phu Dong Thien
Vuong<BR>Dalat<BR>Vietnam<BR><BR><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"
class=MsoNormal><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Stoves
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<P class=MsoNormal><BR><BR clear=all><BR>-- <BR>Paul A. Olivier
PhD<BR>26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong<BR>Dalat<BR>Vietnam<BR><BR>Louisiana
telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)<BR>Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in
Vietnam)<BR>Skype address: Xpolivier<BR><A href="http://www.esrla.com/"
target=_blank>http://www.esrla.com/</A>
<o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
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href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR><BR>to
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<P class=MsoNormal><BR><BR clear=all><BR>-- <BR>Paul A. Olivier PhD<BR>26/5
Phu Dong Thien Vuong<BR>Dalat<BR>Vietnam<BR><BR>Louisiana telephone:
1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)<BR>Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)<BR>Skype
address: Xpolivier<BR><A href="http://www.esrla.com/"
target=_blank>http://www.esrla.com/</A> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
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