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    Dear Kevin,<br>
    <br>
    isn't a billion 10^9 ? and billion billion therefore 10^18?<br>
    <br>
    the factors include water's ability to chemically shunt organic and
    inorganic contained and bottom materials within the pH system, which
    means we'd have to be able to at least model the composition of an
    average ocean bottom re. minerals, overall ocean avg. temp, surface
    to bottom migration, etc.<br>
    <br>
    I am an ecologically sympathetic person, but see more danger
    presently from legal, semi-legal and illegal fishing practice to the
    overall health of the oceans.<br>
    <br>
    I am also sympathetic with the concerns of Cecil Cook re. poisons,
    but think it somewhat confusing to put CO2 in the same class as
    CCl4. Depending on the amount of time between the cleaning process
    and the dipped sleeve there could well have been quite a significant
    amount of Carbon Tet in the water, especially in view of the
    proportions of scale-- I well remember being able to tell when I
    walked through the door of our house if my mother had brought things
    home from the cleaners and the odor was remarkable for some time
    after removing the plastic or paper wrappers of the day. And no, we
    don't know everything, which should make us more cautious not only
    in our actions, but also in concretizing our fears.<br>
    <br>
    regards,<br>
    Ron von Bayernmittelwochenwochenende<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 08.08.2013 13:41, Kevin wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:ED190DCE2EF24891AC010075E38B6600@usera594fda0bf"
      type="cite">
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      <div><font face="Arial">Dear Paul</font></div>
      <div> </div>
      <div><font face="Arial">Crispin indicates that the mass of the
          ocean is about 1.33 billion billion tons, i.e., 1.33 x 10^12
          tons. That is a lot of water.</font></div>
      <div> </div>
      <div><font face="Arial">The oceans are now alkaline. Some CO2
          additions will lower the pH of the ocean, but the oceans will
          still be alkaline.</font></div>
      <div> </div>
      <div><font face="Arial">How much CO2 would be required to actually
          make the oceans acidic? </font></div>
      <div> </div>
      <div><font face="Arial">At current rates of anthropogenic CO2
          production, how long would it take for the Oceans to actually
          become acidic?</font></div>
      <div> </div>
      <div><font face="Arial">Thanks!</font></div>
      <div> </div>
      <div><font face="Arial">Kevin</font></div>
      <blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT:
        5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
        <div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
        <div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color:
          black"><b>From:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
            title="paul.olivier@esrla.com"
            href="mailto:paul.olivier@esrla.com">Paul Olivier</a> </div>
        <div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a
            moz-do-not-send="true"
            title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
            href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of
            biomass cooking stoves</a> </div>
        <div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 08,
          2013 7:08 AM</div>
        <div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] more
          on ocean acidification</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div dir="ltr">
          <div>
            <div>
              <div>Crispin,<br>
                <br>
              </div>
              The term that the scientific community uses is "ocean
              acidification," and this is a very real environmental
              problem that most people in the scientific community do
              not deny.<br>
              <br>
            </div>
            Many thanks.<br>
          </div>
          Paul Olivier<br>
        </div>
        <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
          <br>
          <div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Aug 8, 2013 at 12:27 PM,
            Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <span dir="ltr"><<a
                moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com" target="_blank">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a>></span>
            wrote:<br>
            <blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px
              0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote">
              <div vlink="purple" link="blue" lang="EN-CA">
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt">Dear Friends</span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt"></span> </p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt">I have been catching up on less important
                      correspondence after being in Asia for a while.
                      There is one thing that still needs to be put down
                      like a broken-legged horse and that of course is
                      the idea that CO<sub>2</sub> ‘acidifies’ the
                      ocean.</span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt"></span> </p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt">Because this is a high school chemistry
                      level topic and I know some of us took other
                      things – or as the drummer in my brothers class
                      said, “I don’t remember Chemistry, I was stoned
                      that year.”</span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt"></span> </p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt">So for those of you who were also stoned
                      that year or can’t remember back that far, here is
                      a simple review of pH with special reference to
                      the oceans, CO<sub>2</sub> and the false, badly
                      mis-named idea that CO<sub>2</sub> ‘increases the
                      acidity of the oceans’.</span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt"></span> </p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt">The term pH refers to one of three distinct
                      chemical conditions which bear no relationship to
                      each other. One is called acidity, another is
                      called alkalinity and third is ‘neutral’. Acidity
                      and alkalinity are so different that if equal in
                      ‘strength’ they cancel each other completely
                      leaving a neutral condition. Different pH numbers
                      refer to different conditions.</span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt"></span> </p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt">Acid solutions (it has to be a solution with
                      water in it) have a chemistry that has Hydrogen
                      atoms stripped of their single electron. They are
                      thus positively changed and seeking an electron.
                      This they will happily strip out of anything
                      passing by if they can find it, tearing the
                      molecules to bits in the process which is why
                      acids ‘eat’ things.</span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt"></span> </p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt">Alkaline solutions (again, involving water)
                      have molecules that have an extra electron
                      available (but not Hydrogen) and are thus
                      negatively charged. They will give away an
                      electron happily, often wrecking the object that
                      receives it which is why they eat things too but
                      by a completely different process.</span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt"></span> </p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt">Both acidic and alkaline solutions can
                      corrode things like metals and rocks. One takes
                      electrons and one gives them. Quote opposite. The
                      two conditions are so incompatible they cannot be
                      present at the same time in a mixed solution. It
                      is one, the other or ‘neutral’ if neither
                      condition is present.</span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt"></span> </p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt">If you have an alkaline solution like the
                      ocean (pH 7.8 - 8.4 depending on where you are,
                      the time of day and a host of other things) and
                      you want to neutralise it so that all its spare
                      electrons are taken up by various things, you
                      would have to add something acidic. Adding CO<sub>2</sub>
                      by bubbling it through the seawater will convert
                      some of the CO<sub>2</sub> (about 1%) to carbonic
                      acid which has a deficiency of electrons and that
                      acid will merge with whichever passing opportunity
                      presents itself. The corresponding alkaline
                      molecule will be neutralised as its spare electron
                      will be passed to the carbonic acid molecule
                      (which has an H<sup>-</sup> in it) and afterwards
                      neither will have any charge. Both will be
                      neutralised if the charges are balanced.</span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt"></span> </p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt">Because this happens very quickly, you
                      cannot actually find any carbonic acid in the
                      ocean. Nor any other acid. The oceans are not
                      acidic at all.  Any ocean has quite a store of
                      available electrons. Anything acidic you dump into
                      the sea is quickly neutralised and the pH drops
                      slightly because it is closer to a neutral
                      condition. The oceanic capacity to hand over
                      electrons to any passing electron gap is very,
                      very large. There are several processes that would
                      begin to offer electrons but do not because the
                      ocean is too alkaline to allow them to get
                      started. The ability to do this is called the
                      ‘buffering’ capacity. You may remember ‘Bufferin’
                      the pill that neutralises stomach acid. The pill
                      is alkaline and has a large buffering capacity so
                      it can hand a lot of electrons over to the acid in
                      the stomach, thus neutralising it. If you took a
                      whole bottle of Bufferin pills, your stomach would
                      not become less and less and less acidic. It would
                      be neutralised and then become alkaline and
                      remains so until the spare electrons were taken up
                      in a neutralising process. People are, in general,
                      alkaline and should eat alkaline foods to remain
                      healthy. Excess acid is a problem.</span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt"></span> </p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt">By the same measure, reducing the
                      availability of spare electrons in the ocean water
                      does not <i>at all</i> make the water acidic
                      because it still has many more available
                      electrons. It is less alkaline, but it is not
                      acidic at all – zero in the ‘acidic scale’ (there
                      isn’t one). </span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt"></span> </p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt">In order to make a convenient metric for
                      describing these two conditions (which can cancel
                      each other out very predictably) the pH scale is
                      used. Above 7.0 the solution has available
                      electrons and is termed alkaline. Below 7.0 is has
                      a deficiency of electrons and is called ‘acidic’.
                      The reason for the use of two different terms is
                      they are chemically dissimilar and cannot coexist.</span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt"></span> </p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt">Acidity of a solution is often represented
                      by the Hydrogen equivalent [H<sup>+</sup>]<sub>T</sub>
                      which is the total number of Hydrogen electrons
                      that would be needed to neutralise it.</span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt"></span> </p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt">Alkalinity is often expressed in terms of
                      its equivalence to Calcium Carbonate CACO<sub>3</sub>
                      in mg/Litre.</span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt"></span> </p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt">Q.           Can CO<sub>2</sub> ‘acidify’
                      water? </span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt">A.            Yes, if the water is neutral
                      to begin with, or already acidic, like rain water.
                      Because rain water is acidic, when it falls into
                      the ocean it neutralises the drops of seawater
                      where it touches, before becoming diluted again by
                      the surrounding ocean. Rainwater does not impart
                      to the ocean any microscopic ability to withdraw
                      electrons. It is quickly neutralised by some
                      seawater. When it is finished a few seconds later,
                      the acid has been destroyed.</span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt"></span> </p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt">Q.           If one bubbled CO<sub>2 </sub>through
                      sea water, would it eventually become acidic?</span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt">A.            Yes. If you were to first
                      neutralise all the available electrons by mopping
                      them up, after that it would start to become
                      acidic. It would not considered be acidic at all
                      until the whole body of the sample had first been
                      neutralised. These two conditions cannot co-exist.</span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt"></span> </p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt">Q.           What about ‘acid rain’. </span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt">A.            All rain is acidic. It is
                      acidic because fresh water absorbs CO2 rapidly
                      from the atmosphere, converting about 1% into
                      carbonic acid. This falls into the oceans and
                      reacts with the available alkaline molecules. It
                      is easy to acidify rain. It is very difficult to
                      neutralise the oceans because of the rocks upon
                      which they sit which have a huge, massive
                      buffering capacity. There are numerous life cycles
                      of creatures that withdraw CO<sub>2</sub>, CO3<sup>-2</sup>
                      and HCO<sub>3</sub>- when it is available.
                      Obviously CACO<sub>3</sub> is high on the list for
                      uptake by creatures that make shells.</span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt"></span> </p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt">Q.           Which has a larger impact on
                      ocean alkalinity: atmospheric CO<sub>2</sub> or
                      rain containing CO<sub>2</sub>?</span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt">A.            Not clear. Rain has a big
                      effect because oceans actually have difficulty
                      picking up enough CO<sub>2</sub> to drive the
                      level much above 600 ppm because of the limited
                      surface area compared with the volume and the huge
                      buffering capacity.  Rain is much higher - about
                      1120 ppm CO<sub>2</sub>. Global rainfall totals
                      about half a million cubic kilometers per year and
                      contains about 600 billion tons of CO<sub>2</sub>
                      which is about 20 times <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.global-greenhouse-warming.com/anthropogenic-climate-change.html"
                        target="_blank">human</a> output. </span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt"></span> </p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt">Q.           What is the mass of the oceans?</span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt">A.            1.332 billion billion tons.</span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt"></span> </p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt">Q.           Do reputable scientific
                      organisations refer to ‘acidifying’ the oceans
                      even though that is not, chemically, what it
                      happening?</span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt">A.            Yes. NASA <a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="http://www.earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/OceanCarbon/"
                        target="_blank">does</a>. “As we burn fossil
                      fuels and atmospheric carbon dioxide levels go up,
                      the ocean absorbs more carbon dioxide to stay in
                      balance. But this absorption has a price: these
                      reactions lower the water’s pH, <span
                        style="BACKGROUND: yellow">meaning it’s more
                        acidic</span>.”</span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt"></span> </p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt">Q.           But it is less alkaline, not
                      more acidic. Why do they write that when it is
                      untrue, in fact it is unscientific?</span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt">A.            I don’t think anyone knows. 
                      Perhaps they too missed Chemistry in high school.</span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt"></span> </p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt">+++++++</span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt">Regards<br>
                      Crispin</span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt"></span> </p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt"></span> </p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                      'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
                      11pt"></span> </p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                        'Calibri','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"
                        lang="EN-US">Sent:</span></b><span
                      style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif';
                      FONT-SIZE: 11pt" lang="EN-US"> Friday, July 26,
                      2013 3:25 PM<br>
                      <b>Subject:</b> [Stoves] more on ocean
                      acidification</span></p>
                  <div class="im">
                    <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=noaa-scientists-embark-voyage-asses-ocean-acidification"
                          target="_blank">http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=noaa-scientists-embark-voyage-asses-ocean-acidification</a><br
                          clear="all">
                        <br>
                        -- <br>
                        Paul A. Olivier PhD<br>
                        26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong<br>
                        Dalat<br>
                        Vietnam<br>
                        <br>
                        <br>
                      </p>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
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              <br>
            </blockquote>
          </div>
          <br>
          <br clear="all">
          <br>
          -- <br>
          Paul A. Olivier PhD<br>
          26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong<br>
          Dalat<br>
          Vietnam<br>
          <br>
          Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)<br>
          Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)<br>
          Skype address: Xpolivier<br>
          <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.esrla.com/"
            target="_blank">http://www.esrla.com/</a> </div>
        <p> </p>
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        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list

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</pre>
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      <br>
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