<div dir="ltr">See comments below.<br><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Aug 10, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Ronald Hongsermeier <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:rwhongser@web.de" target="_blank">rwhongser@web.de</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
Dear Paul,<br>
<br>
A couple of the paragraphs you wrote seemed to me to sound either/or
to me.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Not really. In any case, that is not what I intended.<br> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<br>
Please consider that the last I heard, enough of China's underground
_reserves_ of coal were burning annually to equal Germany's entire
annual energetic output/needs in CO2 equivalents. This is a long
term problem for the Chinese. Does it make more sense to use the
coal in an improved stove or let it burn in the ground under
conditions that certainly cause lots of BC and really ugly tars?
(Please note, the question is consciously oversimplified, not as
condescension, but to jostle thinking!)<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I worked for over 20 years in the reclamation of abandoned mine lands, especially coal gob piles. The pollution left behind by the coal mining industry is horrendous. The concept of "clean coal" is ludicrous. Often we would reclaim gob piles that had been burning uncontrollably for many years. This was not an easy job. On many jobs I was involved, through the supply of equipment, in what was needed to displace and reclaim as much as 20 million tons per site. I did two projects in China. Of course the Chinese have a long way to go in cleaning up this mess: <i>China's coal fires ... make up as much as 1 percent of the global carbon dioxide
emissions from fossil fuels.<sup id="cite_ref-Krajick_3-1" class=""><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_seam_fire#cite_note-Krajick-3"><span></span><span></span></a></sup></i><br><br></div><div>So what do we do? Do we build clean-burning coal stoves and encourage the Chinese to burn coal in advance of a fire? I do not think that this would be the most progressive approach.<br>
</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<br>
When a government as directly oriented as the Chinese is not capable
of keeping people from independently mining coal, how do you propose
to help these poor people -- how to convince them it would be better
to just use biomass?<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I think that one solution lies in making biomass available to the Chinese in a predictable form. China produces 340 million tons of straw each year. It seems that the Chinese have already begun pelletizing straw. Please take the time to read this:<br>
<br><p>
<i>Chinese farmers used to store straw for cooking and heating. But with
their rising incomes and growing desire for an easier life, more rural
families began buying coal briquettes and bottled liquefied petroleum
gas instead. So they simply set fire to straw.</i></p><i>
</i><p><i>
Burning straw is a major cause of smog. The smoky air also has a pungent
odor that causes coughing and other health problems. Sometimes it even
costs lives as dense, eye-smarting smoke clouds drift over roads and
lead to car crashes.</i></p><i>
</i><p><i>
Lawmakers here have tried to ban straw burning, but farmers in a hurry
to clean fields for the next planting often ignore that. In places like
eastern China's Anhui province, the government sent drones aloft to
identify the straw burners.</i></p><i>
</i><p>
<i>
In 2005, after hearing about farmers in neighboring villages being
jailed for burning straw, Lin Zhenheng, then a 48-year-old entrepreneur,
decided to seek a solution.</i></p><i>
</i><p><i>
Lin's company, Shangqiu Sanli New Energy, first consulted farmers who
have mastered the use of straw for years. Then it brought in some
experts. About a year later, the company came out with a pilot facility
in the heart of Henan province, one of China's major crop-producing
regions.</i></p><i>
</i><p><i>
The facility turns straw into biochar and wood tar, cleaner-burning
alternatives to diesel fuel. It also produces wood vinegar out of straw
-- a liquid that makes nonarable soil grow crops. The facility captures a
large quantity of combustible gas from the process to meet its own
energy needs and to heat a nearby hotel and a public bathroom -- a
popular facility in rural China.</i></p><i>
</i><p><i>
The company later found that its biochar can improve soil quality and
its biodegradable wood tar can kill pests in farmland while doing little
harm to Earth.</i></p><i>
</i><p><i>
The discoveries have whetted Lin's appetite for more straw business. His
company now runs seven such facilities across the region and disposes
of 200,000 tons of straw every year.</i></p><i>
</i><p>
<i>
As the means of reusing straw have increased, so have employment
opportunities. The company provides more than 400 factory jobs to rural
communities and helps turn wasteland into farmland so that more
villagers can work in their hometowns rather than migrating to cities.</i></p><i>
</i><p><i>
<b>Last year, the company persuaded dozens of rural communities to stop
using coal by supplying them with equipment that processes straw into
pellets to compete with coal. Some farmers found using biochar can keep
the same crop yield while cutting fertilizer use by a quarter.</b></i></p><p></p><p>
<i>China's biomass business potential has also caught the eyes of
international giants. General Electric Co., for one, signed a
partnership last year with an energy research institute in the city
Guangzhou to develop and commercialize a technology that uses power from
straw gasification to generate electricity.</i></p><i>
</i><p><i>
According to China's latest bioenergy development guideline, the nation
annually generates 340 million tons of straw that is available for
energy use. So far, less than 3 percent of the straw has been used for
that purpose....</i></p><p><i>"If we can turn all of China's straw into energy, rural Chinese will no
longer need other energy means," Lin said. "Henan province alone
generates 70 million tons of straw each year, and that has an energy
potential equal to seven big coal reserves. We'll run out of coal
reserves one day, but we'll always have straw."</i></p><a href="http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=can-straw-provide-chinas-energy-needs">http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=can-straw-provide-chinas-energy-needs</a><br>
<br></div><div>The huge infrastructure attached to coal gives it such a massive advantage at the moment over biomass fuels. Funding organization such as the GACC should direct some of its enormous capital toward setting up the infrastructures sorely needed in developing countries to prepare fuels for biomass stoves. To focus only on stoves does not quite go far enough.<br>
<br></div><div>Many thanks.<br></div><div>Paul Olivier<br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<br>
regards,<br>
Ronald von Weiherbayernsonnenschein<div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 10.08.2013 09:13, Paul Olivier
wrote:<br>
</div>
</div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div class="h5">
<div dir="ltr">See comments below.<br>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Aug 10, 2013 at 10:45 AM, Tom
Miles <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com" target="_blank">tmiles@trmiles.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">Paul,</span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">Perhaps
you missed the discussion late last year when a
major study including BC was issued. Tami Bond,
one of our number and a co-author, made a
presentation for us at ETHOS in January. There is
no question that BC is a major concern for
“climate disruption” and health. It is not either
biomass or fossil fuels. Improvement is needed for
both. </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I did not frame the issue in either-or terms. But
should we be burning coal to cook a meal in areas where
biomass is abundant? Should we be trying to improve and
promote coal stoves in areas where biomass stoves make a
lot more sense in terms of global warming?<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"></span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">Tami’s
notes for her Saturday evening Keynote address
including the Dec 2012 study reference are at: <a href="http://www.vrac.iastate.edu/ethos/proceedings2013.html" target="_blank">http://www.vrac.iastate.edu/ethos/proceedings2013.html</a></span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">The
study was, “A comparative risk assessment of
burden of disease and injury attributable to 67
risk factors and risk factor clusters in 21
regions, 1990-2010: a systematic analysis for the
Global Burden of Disease Study 2010.” Lim et. al
December 2012. </span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"><a href="http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2812%2961766-8/abstract" target="_blank">http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2812%2961766-8/abstract</a></span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">
</span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">Household
air pollution from solid fuels is listed in the
comparative risk assessment as #4 globally. Tami
described the BC impacts of kerosene and biomass
and the impact of stove design on the evolution of
BC and its persistence in the atmosphere. </span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">I
will ignore your disparaging remarks about GACC.
The reality is that we are all GACC. </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I asked a question about the policy focus of the GACC
with no intention of being disparaging. I asked this
question because I am left with the impression that the
main focus of the GACC is the health of a cook as she
cooks a meal. Hopefully I am wrong. If all poor people in
the world could afford bottled gas through a series of
national or international subsidies, would the mission of
the GACC be fulfilled? Does the GACC put the use of fossil
fuels such as coal on the same footing as the use of
biomass fuels such as rice hulls? Would a clean-burning
coal stove in the eyes of the GACC be just as acceptable
as a clean-burning biomass stove in areas where both coal
and rice hulls are available? Also what is the policy of
the GACC with regard to biochar? If biochar is not
combusted in a stove but incorporated into the soil, would
this be understood by the GACC as a huge inefficiency in
the transfer of heat to a pot?<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">We
should be mutually supporting individual and
collective efforts to solve the myriad of issues
to the extent that we can. </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I am happy to support whatever makes sense in terms of
both human health and the health of the environment. What
is the position of the GACC with regard to global warming,
climate change, and ocean acidification, and how does
their position with regard to these important issues
impact their choice of the stoves they seek to promote?<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>Many thanks.<br>
</div>
<div>Paul<br>
</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="">
<span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"></span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">Tom</span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class=""><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
Stoves [mailto:<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul Olivier<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, August 09, 2013 7:59 PM</span></p>
<div>
<div><br>
<b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] more on ocean
acidification</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=""> </p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="" style="margin-bottom:12pt">Tom,</p>
</div>
<p class="" style="margin-bottom:12pt">Please
explain a bit more why you raise the
question of black carbon? Do you do so
mainly from the point of view of human
health? Or do you have other environmental
considerations in mind? As you know, many
scientists maintain that black carbon
warms the earth. Are you not going in the
direction of another contentious issue
that some might consider to be unrelated
to stove design?<br>
<br>
Many parts of China have both coal and
biomass. In such areas should we try to
develop more efficient coal stoves? Or
should we try to put a lot more emphasis
on biomass stoves? Would it not make sense
to develop stoves that are low in black
carbon and at the same time do not create
CO2 from non-renewable sources such as
coal? Does the GACC ask such broad
questions? Or does it operate out of sort
of philosophical vacuum where issues like
black carbon, global warming and ocean
acidification are unrelated to stove
design?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="">Let us imagine an area
in China where there is no biomass at all:
no rice hulls, no rice straw, no
agricultural or forestry residue of any
kind. And let us suppose that in this
barren landscape there is nothing but
coal. Here I concede that it makes sense
to focus attention on developing more
efficient coal stoves.<br>
<br>
Many thanks.</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="">Paul</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="" style="margin-bottom:12pt"> </p>
<div>
<p class="">On Sat, Aug 10,
2013 at 8:52 AM, Tom Miles <<a href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com" target="_blank">tmiles@trmiles.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">Black
Carbon (BC) is a another
compelling and totally related
reason for developing improved
biomass and fossil fuel stoves.
A study published yesterday
estimates that more the 80% of
black carbon from China is from
fossil fuels. A significant
portion of that is from coal
burning stoves. They recommend
developing more efficient coal
stoves. These tasks are all
relevant and identified as part
of the strategic work plan of
the Global Alliance for Clean
Cookstoves (GACC).</span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">Tom</span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p>Source Forensics of Black Carbon
Aerosols from China Bing Chen,
August Andersson, Meehye Lee,
Elena N. Kirillova, Qianfen Xiao,
Martin Kruså, Meinan Shi, Ke Hu,
Zifeng Lu, David G. Streets, Ke Du
and Örjan Gustafsson Environ.
Sci. Technol., Article ASAP</p>
<p>DOI: 10.1021/es401599r</p>
<p>Publication Date (Web): August
08, 2013</p>
<p>Copyright © 2013, American
Chemical Society <a href="http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es401599r" target="_blank">http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es401599r</a></p>
<p class=""><a name="140674ce36d5a3eb_1406654e4fb37494_14065ed321f9c633__MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></a></p>
<p class="">
<b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
Stoves [mailto:<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul
Olivier<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, August 09,
2013 6:42 PM</span></p>
<div>
<p class=""><br>
<b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass
cooking stoves<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves]
more on ocean acidification</p>
</div>
<p class=""> </p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="" style="margin-bottom:12pt">Dean,</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="" style="margin-bottom:12pt">Are
you saying that topics
relating to global
warming, ocean
acidification and the
benefits of biochar do
not influence how we go
about designing stoves?
Should they be biomass
stoves or fossil fuel
stoves? Do we place all
on a equal footing as
long as they are
clean-burning? If we
build biomass stoves,
should these stove be
burning or producing
biochar? How can we
design a stoves in a
theoretical vacuum?</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="">Thanks.</p>
</div>
<p class="">Paul Olivier</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="" style="margin-bottom:12pt"> </p>
<div>
<p class="">
On Sat, Aug 10, 2013 at
7:15 AM, Dean Still <<a href="mailto:deankstill@gmail.com" target="_blank">deankstill@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
<p class="">Dear
All,</p>
<div>
<p class="">
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="">I'd
like to remind the List
that the moderator has
politely asked that we
return to the topic of
stoves. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=""> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="">Best,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=""> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="" style="margin-bottom:12pt">Dean</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="">
On Fri, Aug 9,
2013 at 3:48 PM,
Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott
<<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com" target="_blank">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;border-style:none none none solid;border-color:-moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-CA">Dear
Ron</span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-CA">I
was going to
reply but
after
subtracting
the ad homina,
speculations,
straw men and
loose
assertions
there was
nothing left
in the
message. </span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-CA">The
problem you
will continue
to have with
me is I have
read the
‘Skeptical
Science’
playbook on
how to handle
skeptical
criticisms of
AGW. It was a
document put
together by
the Team (as
you know) and
promoted to
the compliant
as a way to
communicate –
a style, if
you will – of
how to handle
people who
were ‘off
message’. </span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-CA">There
is actually a
new one issued
by some
political
group in the
USA which I
read this past
week. It is
pages long.
It includes
specific
instructions
for example to
always mention
‘climate
disruption’ as
it is harder
to dispute and
refute than
‘global
warming’ now
that there
isn’t any. It
suggests ways
to undermine
and weaken the
appeal of
speakers who
are presenting
contrary
evidence that
undermines the
catastrophic
side of AGW
(can’t have
that). The
vast majority
of CAGW
skeptics
concede a
human role in
global
warming, but
assert that it
is tiny and to
date,
undetectable.
The
instructions
are to try to
try to paint
skeptics as
‘denying’ <i>all</i>
human
influence on
the planet
then offers
various
pejorative
comparisons
that can be
made so as to
cause
consternation
for the
skeptic or
those
listening to
them.</span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-CA">The
instructions
from your
buddies at SkS
include always
pooh-poohing
the
credentials of
any author
cited, always
trying to
paint the
skeptical
correspondent
as ‘alone’ in
their
understanding,
always insert
some mention
of how settled
things are
with the
‘majority’ of
‘reputable’
scientists and
so on and on.
We have seen
it all
before. </span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-CA">You
are quite good
at following
the party line
but it does
not (at all)
address the
fact that
there is no
such thing as
‘acidifying
the ocean’
when the
number of
anions is
reduced
through a
process called
neutralisation
so it is less
alkaline. I
will not
matter if my
mother ‘wears
army boots’.
Facts are
facts.
Peer-reviewed
bunk is still
bunk. As you
will have
noticed by now
I am
completely
unimpressed by
Letters<sup>1</sup>.</span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-CA">As
the CAGW
fear-mongering
system falls
apart country
after country
is bailing
out. </span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-CA">As
Fred says (I
cannot say it
better
myself): </span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"" lang="EN">“…hundreds
of billions of
Euros have
been
squandered,
wasted,
flushed down
the Great
Greenie
Composting
Toilet because
Public Policy
in Europe was
highjacked by
a group of
political
power craving
environmentalists
and grubby,
funding
desperate
scientists who
realized their
First Class
ticket on the
Fame and Gravy
train could be
realized by
abject fear
mongering
about human
influences on
the climate.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"" lang="EN"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"" lang="EN">“A
disgraceful
period in
human history,
one that will
not be treated
well by future
historians.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"" lang="EN">Think
of how much
human good,
human
happiness that
money could
have
purchased. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"" lang="EN"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"" lang="EN">“Think
of how much
real science,
not the
frothed up,
torqued up,
glued together
hockey sticks
or photo
shopped polar
bear pictures
that currently
disgraces the
scientific
community
could have
taken place if
the science
funding had
not been
hijacked by a
small gang of
morally
vacuous
scientists
that are only
good at
creating
hysteria and
performing
kindergarten
level
research.”</span></p>
<div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-CA">Kindergarten
level
research. What
have I been
calling for
over the past
6 years with
respect to
stove testing?
Surely
everyone knows
by now. I am
calling for
the <i>peer
review</i>,
the <i>independent
assessment</i>
of stove test
protocols so
that they are
validated and
the results
they give can
be believed.
The resistance
to this at
every level
has been
amazing and
not without
consequence. </span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-CA">For
one, I have
learned never
to trust that
a spreadsheet
has no errors
in it. I
compliment
whoever is
working on the
PEMS hood
spreadsheet.
The April 2013
version
contains more
than 100 fewer
systematic
errors that
the 2010
version. But
is still has
not been
independently
reviewed.</span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-CA">WBT
4.xx has not
been
independently
reviewed for
precision,
accuracy and
conceptual
relevance.</span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-CA">Now
Ron, you have
been most
vociferous
about how this
or that aspect
of climate
science
information
has been
brought
forward in
articles that
‘were not peer
reviewed’ even
if they were
true. How
about giving
up on trying
to humiliate
and
marginalise me
on this list
(or elsewhere
– who knows)
and put your
energy into
demanding that
the GACC, the
WB, the EPA,
the
Universities
of Illinois,
Colorado and
Berkeley and
anywhere else
submit their
protocols to
competent
authorities
for
independent
review?
Actually the
WB has its
project
protocols
reviewed…well,
they should
continue to do
so.</span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-CA">The
stoves world
is awash in
bad test
results and
invalid claims
and money
trading hands
on the basis
of them. We
cannot change
things
overnight, but
by
implementing
this rule that
you favour so
highly a major
contribution
to the field
of domestic
energy can be
attained.</span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-CA">It
will not
matter (here)
if there is a
record short
summer in the
<a href="http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/08/08/according-to-this-dmi-temperature-plot-the-arctic-has-dropped-below-freezing-about-two-weeks-early/#more-91293" target="_blank">Arctic</a> or photos of stack emissions are <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NOv_4-KeeKI" target="_blank">faked</a> or SkS takes in on the chin with a Godwins Law
<a href="http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/08/07/inside-the-skeptical-science-secret-tree-house-bunker/#more-91202" target="_blank">parody</a> or even if US winter temperatures continue to
<a href="http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/image15.png" target="_blank">plunge</a>.
</span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-CA">I
don’t like
trumped up
CAGW claims
about what ‘it
<a href="http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/warmlist.htm" target="_blank">causes</a>’.
I don’t like
trumped up or
trumped down
stove
performance
results.</span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-CA">Let’s
work together
and bring some
proper science
and
engineering to
the planet of
stoves. I know
you’ll want to
help. We all
do.</span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-CA">Thanks<br>
Crispin</span></p>
<p class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
<p class=""><sup><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-CA">1</span></sup><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-CA">
</span><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-CA">For
those who do
not know what
this means, it
is English for
‘letters after
your name’
signifying
formal
recognition of
capacity,
knowledge and
/or authority.
Examples are
BA, P.Eng etc.</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
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<p class="">
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<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
Paul A. Olivier PhD<br>
26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong<br>
Dalat<br>
Vietnam<br>
<br>
Louisiana telephone:
1-337-447-4124 (rings
Vietnam)<br>
Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in
Vietnam)<br>
Skype address: Xpolivier<br>
<a href="http://www.esrla.com/" target="_blank">http://www.esrla.com/</a>
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<p class=""><br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
Paul A. Olivier PhD<br>
26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong<br>
Dalat<br>
Vietnam<br>
<br>
Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124
(rings Vietnam)<br>
Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)<br>
Skype address: Xpolivier<br>
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<br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
Paul A. Olivier PhD<br>
26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong<br>
Dalat<br>
Vietnam<br>
<br>
Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)<br>
Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)<br>
Skype address: Xpolivier<br>
<a href="http://www.esrla.com/" target="_blank">http://www.esrla.com/</a>
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<fieldset></fieldset>
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<pre>_______________________________________________
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</pre>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<br>
</div></div><p color="#000000" align="left"></p><div class="im">No virus
found in this message.<br>
Checked by AVG - <a href="http://www.avg.com" target="_blank">www.avg.com</a><br></div>
Version: 2013.0.3392 / Virus Database: 3211/6565 - Release Date:
08/09/13<p></p>
</blockquote>
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<br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Paul A. Olivier PhD<br>26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong<br>Dalat<br>Vietnam<br>
<br>Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)<br>Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)<br>Skype address: Xpolivier<br><a href="http://www.esrla.com/" target="_blank">http://www.esrla.com/</a>
</div></div>