Dear Kevin,<div><br></div><div>Yes, but can we review after the ISO committees gather and make their decision? </div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Dean<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Aug 11, 2013 at 1:18 AM, Kevin <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net" target="_blank">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><u></u>
<div bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div><font face="Arial">Dear Dean</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Do you, as an Individual, " ...<strong> support
the external review of the various stove testing protocols by competent
independent authorities?</strong></font></div>
<div><strong><font face="Arial"></font></strong> </div>
<div><strong><font face="Arial">Best wishes,</font></strong></div>
<div><strong><font face="Arial"></font></strong> </div>
<div><strong><font face="Arial">Kevin</font></strong></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#000000 2px solid;PADDING-LEFT:5px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;MARGIN-LEFT:5px;MARGIN-RIGHT:0px">
<div style="FONT:10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial;BACKGROUND:#e4e4e4"><b>From:</b>
<a title="deankstill@gmail.com" href="mailto:deankstill@gmail.com" target="_blank">Dean
Still</a> </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</a> </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, August 10, 2013 12:46
PM</div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] more on ocean
acidification</div>
<div><br></div>Dear Kevin,
<div><br></div>
<div>In the ISO process, which will take several years, hundreds of experts
from around the world will be proposing many different approaches to testing.
There are national tests in China and India. Who knows, it's possible that a
field based approach like the Controlled Cooking Test may be used?</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>The "<strong><font face="Arial">external review of the various stove
testing protocols by competent independent authorities" is taking
place on an incredibly wide scale that is beyond the influence of
individuals. </font></strong></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><b><br></b></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><b>Best,</b></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><b><br></b></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><b>Dean<br></b></font><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 10:29 PM, Kevin <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net" target="_blank">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;PADDING-LEFT:1ex" class="gmail_quote"><u></u>
<div bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div><font face="Arial">Dear Dean</font></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#000000 2px solid;PADDING-LEFT:5px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;MARGIN-LEFT:5px;MARGIN-RIGHT:0px">
<div style="FONT:10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial;BACKGROUND:#e4e4e4"><b>From:</b> <a title="deankstill@gmail.com" href="mailto:deankstill@gmail.com" target="_blank">Dean Still</a> </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves</a> </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, August 10, 2013 2:10
AM</div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] more on ocean
acidification</div>
<div><br></div>Dear Kevin,
<div><br></div>
<div>Can you imagine a more thorough investigation than the international
ISO process that is occurring? </div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"># Yes, I certainly can! All that the ISO Process
ensures is that a procedure is put in place to ensure that "whatever is
being done will be done consistently." If a "garbage stove testing
procedure" was submitted for ISO for ISO Approval, it could very well get
ISO Approval, and the result would be "consistent garbage stove
testing results".</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"># The first sensible step is to develop a
scientifically valid testing procedure, which THEN would be submitted for
ISO Approval. As long as ISO standards and procedures were followed,
such a scientifically valid testing procedure would consistently give
scientifically valid results.</font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"># So... <strong>would you be prepared to
support the external review of the various stove testing protocols by
competent independant authorities?</strong></font></div>
<div><strong><font face="Arial"></font></strong> </div>
<div><strong><font face="Arial">Best wishes,</font></strong></div>
<div><strong><font face="Arial"></font></strong> </div>
<div><strong><font face="Arial">Kevin</font></strong></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Dean<br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 7:51 PM, Kevin <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net" target="_blank">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;PADDING-LEFT:1ex" class="gmail_quote"><u></u>
<div bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div><font face="Arial">Dear Dean</font></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#000000 2px solid;PADDING-LEFT:5px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;MARGIN-LEFT:5px;MARGIN-RIGHT:0px">
<div style="FONT:10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial;BACKGROUND:#e4e4e4"><b>From:</b> <a title="deankstill@gmail.com" href="mailto:deankstill@gmail.com" target="_blank">Dean Still</a> </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Discussion
of biomass cooking stoves</a> </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Friday, August 09, 2013
9:15 PM</div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] more on
ocean acidification</div>
<div><br></div>Dear All,
<div><br></div>
<div>I'd like to remind the List that the moderator has politely asked
that we return to the topic of stoves. </div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"><strong># Good point! To advance "the science of
stove testing", would you be prepared to support the external
review of the various stove testing protocols by competent independant
authorities?</strong></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Best wishes,</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Kevin</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Dean<br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 3:48 PM, Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com" target="_blank">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;PADDING-LEFT:1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div lang="EN-CA" vlink="purple" link="blue">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">Dear
Ron<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">I
was going to reply but after subtracting the ad homina,
speculations, straw men and loose assertions there was nothing left
in the message. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">The
problem you will continue to have with me is I have read the
‘Skeptical Science’ playbook on how to handle skeptical criticisms
of AGW. It was a document put together by the Team (as you know) and
promoted to the compliant as a way to communicate – a style, if you
will – of how to handle people who were ‘off message’.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">There
is actually a new one issued by some political group in the USA
which I read this past week. It is pages long. It includes
specific instructions for example to always mention ‘climate
disruption’ as it is harder to dispute and refute than ‘global
warming’ now that there isn’t any. It suggests ways to undermine and
weaken the appeal of speakers who are presenting contrary evidence
that undermines the catastrophic side of AGW (can’t have that). The
vast majority of CAGW skeptics concede a human role in global
warming, but assert that it is tiny and to date, undetectable. The
instructions are to try to try to paint skeptics as ‘denying’
<i>all</i> human influence on the planet then offers various
pejorative comparisons that can be made so as to cause consternation
for the skeptic or those listening to them.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">The
instructions from your buddies at SkS include always pooh-poohing
the credentials of any author cited, always trying to paint the
skeptical correspondent as ‘alone’ in their understanding, always
insert some mention of how settled things are with the ‘majority’ of
‘reputable’ scientists and so on and on. We have seen it all
before. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">You
are quite good at following the party line but it does not (at all)
address the fact that there is no such thing as ‘acidifying the
ocean’ when the number of anions is reduced through a process called
neutralisation so it is less alkaline. I will not matter if my
mother ‘wears army boots’. Facts are facts. Peer-reviewed bunk is
still bunk. As you will have noticed by now I am completely
unimpressed by Letters<sup>1</sup>.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">As
the CAGW fear-mongering system falls apart country after country is
bailing out. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">As
Fred says (I cannot say it better myself): <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';FONT-SIZE:10pt" lang="EN">“…hundreds of billions of Euros have been squandered,
wasted, flushed down the Great Greenie Composting Toilet because
Public Policy in Europe was highjacked by a group of political power
craving environmentalists and grubby, funding desperate scientists
who realized their First Class ticket on the Fame and Gravy train
could be realized by abject fear mongering about human influences on
the climate.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';FONT-SIZE:10pt" lang="EN"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';FONT-SIZE:10pt" lang="EN">“A disgraceful period in human history, one that will not be
treated well by future historians.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';FONT-SIZE:10pt" lang="EN">Think of how much human good, human happiness that money
could have purchased. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';FONT-SIZE:10pt" lang="EN"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';FONT-SIZE:10pt" lang="EN">“Think of how much real science, not the frothed up, torqued
up, glued together hockey sticks or photo shopped polar bear
pictures that currently disgraces the scientific community could
have taken place if the science funding had not been hijacked by a
small gang of morally vacuous scientists that are only good at
creating hysteria and performing kindergarten level
research.”<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<blockquote style="MARGIN-TOP:5pt;MARGIN-BOTTOM:5pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">Kindergarten
level research. What have I been calling for over the past 6 years
with respect to stove testing? Surely everyone knows by now.
I am calling for the <i>peer review</i>, the <i>independent
assessment</i> of stove test protocols so that they are validated
and the results they give can be believed. The resistance to
this at every level has been amazing and not without consequence.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">For
one, I have learned never to trust that a spreadsheet has no
errors in it. I compliment whoever is working on the PEMS hood
spreadsheet. The April 2013 version contains more than 100 fewer
systematic errors that the 2010 version. But is still has not been
independently reviewed.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">WBT
4.xx has not been independently reviewed for precision, accuracy
and conceptual relevance.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">Now
Ron, you have been most vociferous about how this or that aspect
of climate science information has been brought forward in
articles that ‘were not peer reviewed’ even if they were true. How
about giving up on trying to humiliate and marginalise me on this
list (or elsewhere – who knows) and put your energy into demanding
that the GACC, the WB, the EPA, the Universities of Illinois,
Colorado and Berkeley and anywhere else submit their protocols to
competent authorities for independent review? Actually the
WB has its project protocols reviewed…well, they should continue
to do so.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">The
stoves world is awash in bad test results and invalid claims and
money trading hands on the basis of them. We cannot
change things overnight, but by implementing this rule that you
favour so highly a major contribution to the field of domestic
energy can be attained.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">It
will not matter (here) if there is a record short summer in the <a href="http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/08/08/according-to-this-dmi-temperature-plot-the-arctic-has-dropped-below-freezing-about-two-weeks-early/#more-91293" target="_blank">Arctic</a> or photos of stack emissions are <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NOv_4-KeeKI" target="_blank">faked</a> or SkS takes in on the chin with a Godwins
Law <a href="http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/08/07/inside-the-skeptical-science-secret-tree-house-bunker/#more-91202" target="_blank">parody</a> or even if US winter temperatures
continue to <a href="http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/image15.png" target="_blank">plunge</a>. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">I
don’t like trumped up CAGW claims about what ‘it <a href="http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/warmlist.htm" target="_blank">causes</a>’. I don’t like trumped up or trumped down
stove performance results.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">Let’s
work together and bring some proper science and engineering to the
planet of stoves. I know you’ll want to help. We all
do.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">Thanks<br>Crispin<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><sup><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">1</span></sup><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">
</span><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:9pt">For
those who do not know what this means, it is English for ‘letters
after your name’ signifying formal recognition of capacity,
knowledge and /or authority. Examples are BA, P.Eng
etc.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div></blockquote></div></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves
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