<div dir="ltr"><div><div><div>Hi all,<br></div>It has been a busy few days, so forgive me if someone has already made these observations. We have used corn cobs with great success in the <span style class="">TLUD</span> style <span style class="">Estufa</span> <span style class="">Finca</span> stoves. I love showing people our little tiny corn cob charcoal. We have also successfully made a lot of <span style class="">biochar</span> from dried corn <span style class="">stover</span> in our version of the 55-gal drum <span style class="">TLUd</span> style J-Ros. MIT has also promoted both of these approaches in it's Field-to-fuel program in Haiti and Nicaragua.<br>
<br></div>But there is a problem with thinking of corn cobs as a stove fuel: most cobs are used as animal feed (pigs/chickens) and needed for it. Applying a hierarchy or best use: the pigs win! However pelleted or briquetted corn <span style class="">stover</span> mixed with paper waste seems like it has a lot of potential. <br>
<br></div>Art<br><div><div><div><div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 12:00 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:stoves-request@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves-request@lists.<span style class="">bioenergylists</span>.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: corn cobs and char? (Ronal W. Larson)<br>
2. Re: LPG subsidy to be removed in Ecuador (Andrew C. Parker)<br>
3. Re: corn cobs and char? (<a href="mailto:revjcsd@juno.com">revjcsd@juno.com</a>)<br>
4. Re: corn cobs and char? (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)<br>
5. Re: corn cobs and char? (<a href="mailto:revjcsd@juno.com">revjcsd@juno.com</a>)<br>
6. Re: corn cobs and char? (Ronal W. Larson)<br>
7. Re: LPG subsidy to be removed in Ecuador (Anand Karve)<br>
8. Re: LPG subsidy to be removed in Ecuador (Andrew C. Parker)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:08:04 -0600<br>
From: "Ronal W. Larson" <<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>><br>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
<<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] corn cobs and char?<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:0C9BBA9A-CCC2-4A20-9443-DA38B198ECA9@comcast.net">0C9BBA9A-CCC2-4A20-9443-DA38B198ECA9@comcast.net</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
<br>
List, Tom etal:<br>
<br>
Thanks for all the inputs. Any others on corn cobs would still be potentially helpful.<br>
<br>
My interest is only in the pyrolysis of such (for biochar production in a simple stove reasons, of course), and (as noted by many below) their low energy density makes pyrolysis difficult in TLUD. Re corncobs themselves in the US, this cite I found helpful:<br>
<a href="http://renewables.morris.umn.edu/biomass/documents/Zych-TheViabilityOfCornCobsAsABioenergyFeedstock.pdf" target="_blank">http://renewables.morris.umn.edu/biomass/documents/Zych-TheViabilityOfCornCobsAsABioenergyFeedstock.pdf</a><br>
<br>
This site<br>
<a href="http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/np/alwayssomethingnew/Waste11.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/np/alwayssomethingnew/Waste11.pdf</a><br>
says that globally there are 35 Gt cobs per year - which would make about as much available as char as total annual fossil emissions. - of 7-8 Gt C (very few of them now being used for anything). But this sounds way too high, but 35 million tons sounds too low. I have read 15% of a corn plant is in the cob, and annual production is approaching 1 Gt C. Anyone an expert on corn? In any case, corn os the world's largest grain crop - in both hectares and tons now, I believe - so their should be some cooking application for cobs somewhere<br>
<br>
This site has a good 2012 paper on corn by Zhang <a href="http://thescipub.com/pdf/10.3844/ajbbsp.2012.44.53" target="_blank">thescipub.com/pdf/10.3844/ajbbsp.2012.44.53</a><br>
<br>
<br>
The reason for asking about cobs is not only that they are pretty widely available, but they are not a bad size and shape (especially compared to rice husks, which get a lot of attention in the stove world)<br>
<br>
I am looking for reasons to drop the corn cob thread, but not yet found it.<br>
<br>
<br>
Might as well design for the EPA testing protocol (5 kg water, 45 minute simmer??, etc). Can anyone supply that (in published form preferably) in terms of anticipated energy need to the pot.? After which we can figure 30-40% (or different Tiers) stove efficiency. Then we can go to container sizes, number of fuel switches per test, etc.<br>
<br>
The first site above says about 5 GJ/m3 for corncobs (and 12 for wood pellets), so (forgetting reloading) the fuel volume needs to be about 2.4 times larger than one with pellets that is also a char-producer. But down draft also allows reloading, not possible with TLUDs. And (maybe) we can avoid a larger fuel container and achieve lower first cost with BLDD.<br>
<br>
<br>
Anyone been thinking along these (corn or BLDD) lines?<br>
<br>
I have in mind a downdraft design that I think can overcome the space and several other problems with TLUDs. Nothing much on paper, but I'd be glad to discuss the BLDD topic with anyone - in an open source context. This is NOT dependent on corn cobs, but came out of thinking about cobs.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Ron<br>
<br>
<br>
On Aug 14, 2013, at 8:34 AM, "Tom Miles" <<a href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com">tmiles@trmiles.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
> It seems to me that we have seen cobs burned with wood fuels in stoves for<br>
> several years, especially in Latin America.<br>
><br>
> A challenge with crop residues is that they have enough air in the stalks,<br>
> cobs and stems to barely support combustion so they tend to smolder rather<br>
> than burn. A little wood provides enough of a pilot flame to keep the<br>
> combustible gases ignited.<br>
><br>
> Tom<br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Stoves mailing list<br>
><br>
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<br>
Message: 2<br>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 14:31:04 -0600<br>
From: "Andrew C. Parker" <<a href="mailto:acparker@xmission.com">acparker@xmission.com</a>><br>
To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"<br>
<<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] LPG subsidy to be removed in Ecuador<br>
Message-ID: <op.w1tpx2u2uoov7l@dad><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15; format=flowed;<br>
delsp=yes<br>
<br>
Another step in the government's marketing campaign (I used to publish a<br>
small newspaper, so the process intrigues me). For those of you who are<br>
considering a major product launch, take notice. (Keep in mind, El<br>
Universo is a major opposition newspaper, though recently editorially<br>
hobbled but not totally controlled. I have not been following this story<br>
in the government owned media.)<br>
<br>
<<a href="http://www.eluniverso.com/noticias/2013/08/14/nota/1288706/sube-demanda-cocinas-induccion-calentadores" target="_blank">http://www.eluniverso.com/noticias/2013/08/14/nota/1288706/sube-demanda-cocinas-induccion-calentadores</a>><br>
<br>
<br>
Important points to consider, when converting to electric cooking<br>
appliances in Ecuador and many other countries, is that electrical service<br>
is often a hit-and-miss affair, and service is often acquired(stolen)<br>
using appliance cord. I hope to see that addressed in upcoming articles,<br>
probably coinciding with the next big service interruption or tragic<br>
electrical fire (which will compensate for the reduction in the number of<br>
tragic tank explosions).<br>
<br>
I am not opposed to conversion to electric (it is still preferable to a<br>
wholesale switch to biomass*), I just don't have confidence that the<br>
government can meet the increased demand for electricity and provide it<br>
reliably.<br>
<br>
*(My great fear is the government turning to biomass fueled power plants.<br>
I see biomass best used as a local solution, where appropriate, i.e. a<br>
sustainable supply without increasing ecological damage. When it is<br>
proposed as a national, regional or global solution, mayhem ensues. What<br>
little I have seen on state television hints that the current preferred<br>
solution will be patriotic reductions in energy use, which brings us back<br>
to biomass stoves.)<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 3<br>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 21:03:12 GMT<br>
From: "<a href="mailto:revjcsd@juno.com">revjcsd@juno.com</a>" <<a href="mailto:revjcsd@juno.com">revjcsd@juno.com</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] corn cobs and char?<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:20130815.050312.10329.2@webmail02.dca.untd.com">20130815.050312.10329.2@webmail02.dca.untd.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
<br>
Ron,<br>
<br>
<br>
On page 24 of the following link:<br>
<br>
<a href="http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.echocommunity.org/resource/collection/25F7955D-C19F-44AE-AA75
-18A5DFC2B980/Household_and_Farm_Level_Gasifier_Technolog.pdf" target="_blank">http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.echocommunity.org/resource/collection/25F7955D-C19F-44AE-AA75<br>
-18A5DFC2B980/Household_and_Farm_Level_Gasifier_Technolog.pdf</a><br>
<br>
<br>
corn cobs are ranked as having the highest thermal efficiency.<br>
<br>
<br>
Would you (or somebody who can read Thai) be able to verify if that is correct? I have sent an email to the address provided but have not received any response.<br>
<br>
Fr Juanito<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
From: "Ronal W. Larson" <<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>><br>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] corn cobs and char?<br>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:08:04 -0600<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 4<br>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 21:44:51 +0000<br>
From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: "Stoves" <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] corn cobs and char?<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<511447701-1376516692-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-194335528-@b27.c10.bise6.blackberry><br>
<br>
Content-Type: text/plain<br>
<br>
Dear Juanito<br>
<br>
Do they define what they mean by 'thermal efficiency'? That may change the impression given.<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
Crispin<br>
>From BB9900<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: "<a href="mailto:revjcsd@juno.com">revjcsd@juno.com</a>" <<a href="mailto:revjcsd@juno.com">revjcsd@juno.com</a>><br>
Sender: "Stoves" <<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 21:03:12<br>
To: <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
<<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] corn cobs and char?<br>
<br>
Ron,<br>
<br>
<br>
On page 24 of the following link:<br>
<br>
<a href="http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.echocommunity.org/resource/collection/25F7955D-C19F-44AE-AA75
-18A5DFC2B980/Household_and_Farm_Level_Gasifier_Technolog.pdf" target="_blank">http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.echocommunity.org/resource/collection/25F7955D-C19F-44AE-AA75<br>
-18A5DFC2B980/Household_and_Farm_Level_Gasifier_Technolog.pdf</a><br>
<br>
<br>
corn cobs are ranked as having the highest thermal efficiency.<br>
<br>
<br>
Would you (or somebody who can read Thai) be able to verify if that is correct? I have sent an email to the address provided but have not received any response.<br>
<br>
Fr Juanito<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
From: "Ronal W. Larson" <<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>><br>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] corn cobs and char?<br>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:08:04 -0600<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>
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<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 5<br>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 21:52:30 GMT<br>
From: "<a href="mailto:revjcsd@juno.com">revjcsd@juno.com</a>" <<a href="mailto:revjcsd@juno.com">revjcsd@juno.com</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a>, <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] corn cobs and char?<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:20130815.055230.21137.0@webmail04.dca.untd.com">20130815.055230.21137.0@webmail04.dca.untd.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
<br>
Crispin,<br>
<br>
No. I suspect something is lost in the translation from Thai to English.<br>
<br>
I asked to have the claim confirmed but so far, I have not received a response.<br>
<br>
Juanito<br>
<br>
---------- Original Message ----------<br>
From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: "Stoves" <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] corn cobs and char?<br>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 21:44:51 +0000<br>
<br>
Dear Juanito<br>
<br>
Do they define what they mean by 'thermal efficiency'? That may change the impression given.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 6<br>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 16:12:12 -0600<br>
From: "Ronal W. Larson" <<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>><br>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
<<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] corn cobs and char?<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:C25A84C8-D68B-43F3-A8B0-304EDF3A965C@comcast.net">C25A84C8-D68B-43F3-A8B0-304EDF3A965C@comcast.net</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii<br>
<br>
Fr. Juanito and list<br>
<br>
1, Re p 24. It was favorable to see cobs come out ahead of chips and char, but it seemed (I could not make the video work), that was almost certainly combustion and neither gasification nor pyrolysis. I need data for pyrolysis, not gasification - which seemed to be the main topic of the PPt, but there was a lot on the Belonio stove. Dr. Olivier has advanced that design a lot.<br>
<br>
2. Slide 15 was badly in error, showing a TLUD and putting the word "combustion" where the word "pyrolysis" should appear.<br>
<br>
3. One doesn't need to be a Thai reader to enjoy this PPt. - maybe 2% in Thai.<br>
<br>
Thanks a lot for the added info.<br>
<br>
Ron<br>
<br>
.<br>
<br>
On Aug 14, 2013, at 3:03 PM, <a href="mailto:revjcsd@juno.com">revjcsd@juno.com</a> wrote:<br>
<br>
> Ron,<br>
><br>
><br>
> On page 24 of the following link:<br>
><br>
> <a href="http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.echocommunity.org/resource/collection/25F7955D-C19F-44AE-AA75" target="_blank">http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.echocommunity.org/resource/collection/25F7955D-C19F-44AE-AA75</a><br>
> -18A5DFC2B980/Household_and_Farm_Level_Gasifier_Technolog.pdf<br>
><br>
><br>
> corn cobs are ranked as having the highest thermal efficiency.<br>
><br>
><br>
> Would you (or somebody who can read Thai) be able to verify if that is correct? I have sent an email to the address provided but have not received any response.<br>
><br>
> Fr Juanito<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> From: "Ronal W. Larson" <<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>><br>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] corn cobs and char?<br>
> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:08:04 -0600<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Stoves mailing list<br>
><br>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
> <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
><br>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
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><br>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>
> <a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 7<br>
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 09:44:47 +0530<br>
From: Anand Karve <<a href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com">adkarve@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
<<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] LPG subsidy to be removed in Ecuador<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:CACPy7Sfnd4sxAbO75gesFqMcCS33Fch7zbAP6axD9YxXtWVMdA@mail.gmail.com">CACPy7Sfnd4sxAbO75gesFqMcCS33Fch7zbAP6axD9YxXtWVMdA@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
<br>
Dear Andrew,<br>
there is no need for anything to get ugly if urban households switched to<br>
biomass. If one used stoves having electrically driven fans, biomass can<br>
be burned as cleanly as kerosene or LPG. If more electricity is going to be<br>
available in Ecuador, it can be used for briquetting agricultural waste.<br>
This has now grown into a thriving industry in India. The briquette makers<br>
buy agricultural waste from farmers and sell the briquettes to<br>
industries as boiler fuel. If an industry uses biomass briquettes instead<br>
of fuel oil as boiler fuel, it saves almost 60% of the fuel cost. A company<br>
of which I am the Chairman of the board, sells large stoves of this type to<br>
restaurants, which have switched over from LPG to using biomass briquettes.<br>
The cities themselves produce a large amount of combustible waste like<br>
cardboard, waste paper and leaf litter. Richard Stanley's method of<br>
briquetting can be used for turning urban waste into fuel briquettes for<br>
use in urban household stoves.<br>
Yours<br>
A.D.Karve<br>
<br>
<br>
On Tue, Aug 13, 2013 at 11:19 AM, Andrew C. Parker <<a href="mailto:acparker@xmission.com">acparker@xmission.com</a>>wrote:<br>
<br>
> There is probably enough ag waste to fuel rural kitchens, but if urban<br>
> households switch to biomass, it will get really ugly, which would be a<br>
> shame for such a beautiful country.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
> ______________________________**_________________<br>
> Stoves mailing list<br>
><br>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
> stoves@lists.bioenergylists.**org <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
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Message: 8<br>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 23:55:10 -0600<br>
From: "Andrew C. Parker" <<a href="mailto:acparker@xmission.com">acparker@xmission.com</a>><br>
To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"<br>
<<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] LPG subsidy to be removed in Ecuador<br>
Message-ID: <op.w1uf18s6uoov7l@dad><br>
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delsp=yes<br>
<br>
Dr. Karve,<br>
<br>
Thank you for your input. My concern is that demand for biomass would<br>
outstrip the supply of agricultural waste and suppliers would begin<br>
behaving like the charcoal burners of pre-subsidy days. I suppose, before<br>
wringing my hands, I could compare the current demand of LPG against the<br>
availability and estimated energy of ag waste, but I don't have those<br>
figures available. Perhaps a grad student could be convinced to do it for<br>
a thesis or capstone project?<br>
<br>
From the articles, it is evident that subsidies will continue, but for<br>
electricity, not for LPG. That should be far less costly than current LPG<br>
subsidies. Also, the comments by users of the the state provided<br>
induction hotplates indicates that there will be a need for a non-electric<br>
backup stove in most kitchens.<br>
<br>
Ironically, if the unregulated price of LPG soars, households that do not<br>
qualify for the electric subsidy, may be more inclined to use a biomass<br>
stove (assuming a lower price for biomass) than those who receive the<br>
subsidy.<br>
<br>
<br>
Andrew Parker<br>
<br>
<br>
On Wed, 14 Aug 2013 22:14:47 -0600, Anand Karve <<a href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com">adkarve@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
> there is no need for anything to get ugly if urban households switched<br>
> to biomass.<br>
<br>
<br>
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End of Stoves Digest, Vol 36, Issue 23<br>
**************************************<br>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Art <span style class="">Donnelly</span><br>President <span style class="">SeaChar</span>.Org<br>US Director, The Farm Stove Project<br><span style class="">Proyecto</span> <span style class="">Estufa</span> <span style class="">Finca</span><br>
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