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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";color:#1F497D">Ron,<u1:p></u1:p></span></b><span
style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";color:#1F497D"> I look forward to
hearing Jim’s, or anyone else’s approach to the difficult
problem of accounting
for the energy. Whoever comes out with a method there will be
another right
around the corner. This is non-ending so there is no need to
wait. My suggested
approach is not a comparison – just a different way of looking
at it. Hopefully
one that will work without all the errors regarding
calculating the remaining
chars.</span></b><span
style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"">
[<b>RWL: One measures, not calculates the
"remaining chars". Can be pretty accurate - especially with
TLUDs.</b></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman""><b>But
why bother? All the heat from carbon carbon bonds stays in the
stove body and does not heat the water. </b><br
style="mso-special-character:line-break">
<!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New
Roman";color:#1F497D"><u1:p></u1:p> </span></b><span
style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";color:#1F497D">I am thinking of a new
approach where we do not need to handle char at all. I noticed
when using the
GEK and Tom Reeds TLUD that when fresh biomass ran out the
secondary flame went
out, or very poor flame. Just add more biomass and you are in
business. </span></b><span
style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"">
<b>[RWL: This is not normally done at all with TLUDs.
It is possible with BLDDs.<br>
</b></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>True - but we still can use the approach I
propose. We keep track of the fraction of biomass that turns
into tars from the pipe method.</b><br>
<span style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman""><b></b><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman""><o:p> </o:p></span><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";color:#1F497D">Hot coals several
inches below the pot did a poor job of heating the pot – so
why even consider
them? </span></b><span
style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"">
<b>[RWL: Right. One of the main purposes of TLUds is
to stop the operation when the pyrolysis front hits the
bottom.</b><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman""><o:p> Perfect
for this test<br>
</o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman""><br
style="mso-special-character:line-break">
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]--><br
style="mso-special-character:line-break">
<!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";color:#1F497D">Its only the fresh
tars that heat the pot and all that other energy just heats
the stove body.
Important to heat the stove body and aid in breaking the bonds
to release lumps
of tars and complex organics free to head to the secondary.
But IF (Big
IF) they do not significantly heat the pot we can rule them
out it saves that
problem of all the difficult calculating. </span></b><span
style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"">
<b>[RWL: If one purpose of the char was to make char, the
measurement and calculating is relatively trivial.<br>
</b></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>If we do, or do not make char doesn't matter.
If we re-use the char or add the char produced to the next stove
- it doesn't matter because it does not heat the water. </b><br>
<span style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman""><b></b><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman""><br
style="mso-special-character:line-break">
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]--><br
style="mso-special-character:line-break">
<!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";color:#1F497D">If you were to fill a
rocket with char and blast air on the char would you get a
secondary flame?</span></b><span
style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"">
<b>[RWL: Yes. This was
demonstrated nicely at Stove camp by Kirk Harris, who had a
special
set of "intermediate" holes - so as to burn the chars nicely
- from the top down.<br>
</b></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>If this is true of a typical stove - my idea
is not valid. But you say a "special set of holes". And I
believe for it to work the temperatures of the char would need
be >800c to produce the CO to add to the tars. I think this
would supply only a small (relative to tars) amount of the
energy for the secondary and only under special conditions. But
I am not yet sure I am right on what I propose based on this. </b><br>
<span style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman""><b></b><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman""><br
style="mso-special-character:line-break">
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]--><br
style="mso-special-character:line-break">
<!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";color:#1F497D">The stove body would
get red hot but the pot only a few inches away would heat up
slowly without the
flames licking the bottom. Lots of useless heat.</span></b><span
style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"">
<b>[RWL: Nope - Kirk had a nice flame. His was a camping
stove and not interested in producing char.
Very clever mod.</b><br
style="mso-special-character:line-break">
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->I had my GEK really
'cooking' with forced air and when the biomass ran out the flame
was a nice blue color, still burning at the secondary and the
stove body got so hot it melted two bolts. But normal conditions
(less cigars & wine!) the secondary would go out unless you
shook in more wood chips. <br
style="mso-special-character:line-break">
<!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";color:#1F497D"><u1:p></u1:p> </span></b><span
style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";color:#1F497D">The question is can we
take a block of wood and determine the weight fraction that
will contribute to
the secondary? And the fraction that sits with combustion in
the stove body? I
think the pipe will do that. Once above 450c the char weight
changes only a small amount with increased heat meaning the
carbon is attached as a lattice. In the real workings of a
stove we add oxygen to produce more CO from the char than in
the pipe but is going from CO to CO2 providing a large
percentage of the heat for the water? and how would we find
that out?<u1:p></u1:p></span></b><span
style="mso-fareast-font-family:
"Times New Roman""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";color:#1F497D"><span
style="-webkit-text-size-adjust:
auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
word-spacing:0px"> <b>[RWL: It might do it if you could </b></span></span><b><span
style="font-size:14.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-fareast-font-family:
"Times
New Roman";color:#1F497D">reproduce all the stove
operating temperature
history. Running at high power will expose the biomass/char
to higher
temps (and less char) than if the run was all at low power.]<br>
</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Just because there is less char doesn't mean
the char that burned did anything to heat the water. It just
heated the stove body. The C-C bonds are not volatile (?) until
they </b>react with oxygen to form CO or CO2. Then they can
join the secondary gases. <br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
Thanks<br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Frank<br>
<b><span
style="font-size:14.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-fareast-font-family:
"Times
New Roman";color:#1F497D"></span></b><span
style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"">
Ron</span></b><span
style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman""><br
style="mso-special-character:line-break">
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]--><br
style="mso-special-character:line-break">
<!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";color:#1F497D"> </span></b><span
style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";color:#1F497D">Something different to
talk about.<u1:p></u1:p></span></b><span
style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";color:#1F497D"> </span></b><span
style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";color:#1F497D">Thanks Ron for the
reply.<u1:p></u1:p></span></b><span
style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";color:#1F497D"> </span></b><span
style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";color:#1F497D">Regards<u1:p></u1:p></span></b><span
style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";color:#1F497D"> </span></b><span
style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";color:#1F497D">Frank<u1:p></u1:p></span></b><span
style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New
Roman";color:#1F497D">Frank Shields<u1:p></u1:p></span></b><span
style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New
Roman";color:#1F497D">Control Laboratories;
Inc.<u1:p></u1:p></span></b><span
style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New
Roman";color:#1F497D">42 Hangar Way<u1:p></u1:p></span></b><span
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New
Roman";color:#1F497D">Watsonville, CA
95076<u1:p></u1:p></span></b><span
style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New
Roman";color:#1F497D">(831) 724-5422 tel<u1:p></u1:p></span></b><span
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
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Roman";color:#1F497D">(831) 724-3188 fax<u1:p></u1:p></span></b><span
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
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mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New
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