<html><head><base href="x-msg://33/"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Dear all of the anointed with the blue flame experience:<div><br></div><div>It may well be less hot" than white and it may be rare phenomena to achieve but as with Marc and Jaakko, (I beleive), once you see it, its really addicting! Beyond that, its really important for any stove designer, from a sheer marketing standpoint. Trying to convince a villager of just another stove no matter how well it performs is an uphill battle. Showing blue flames like GAS " is another story again. ( showing blue flames from charcoal rich briquettes is that 'wow' factor squared but thats another story). The point is, that blue flames look modern and they to burns like "real" gas: Its a phenonema the mass market will be much more likely to buy into. </div><div><br></div><div>Richard Stanley</div><div><a href="http://www.legacyfound.org">www.legacyfound.org</a></div><div>Ashland Oregon</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On Sep 3, 2013, at 6:56 AM, Saastamoinen Jaakko wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Verdana; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div lang="FI" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; "><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Dear all,<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">I have seen blue flames in my heat storing stove under natural draft using wood logs in char combustion stage, when the logs have been broken into pieces. It is CO burning as has been discussed here by others. Later the blue flame disappears due to lower bed temperature so that CO cannot burn but goes to chimney.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">I have also calculated this phenomena. One can see blue flames (CO is burning) if the thickness of bed of char particles and air rate are suitable. If the bed is too thick, blue flames are inside the bed, increasing gas temperature and gasification takes place above producing CO from the bed. (This CO could be burned if somehow oxygen could be mixed and temperature of the gas is high enough). If the bed is too thin, excess air (due to lower flow resistance) cools the gas so that CO is not burning or it burning rate is very low. So it needs suitable bed thickness and air rate which are difficult to maintain with natural draft.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">As Richard Stanley has experienced, blue flame is very sensitive to air rate. I noticed this when calculating the burning with a model. The calculation was based on iteration and on an initial guess. I was astonished that depending on this initial guess I got, not a chaotic solution, but two different stable (quasi)steady state solutions for the temperature and species distributions in the char bed, a high temperature solution and a low temperature solution. Conclusion is that both solutions could be right (CO is either burning or it is not). It depends on the burning history of the stove which solution is the right one. It the fire is disturbed and cooled down a little, CO does not burn but if it remains hot, CO can burn.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">I throw small twigs in the end stage to get some CO escaping to chimney to burn in the volatiles flames, increase the draft and speed up the burning of residual char at the end of the heating.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Jaakko<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div><div style="border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-left-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding-top: 3pt; padding-right: 0cm; padding-bottom: 0cm; padding-left: 0cm; "><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of</b>Erin Rasmussen<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>24. elokuuta 2013 0:15<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Stoves] Blue Flame -- Natural Draft -- Rice Husk<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Hey that's exciting. I've seen blue flame with wood pellets on occasion, but only on the edges of my stick built fires.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Nice work Marc!<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Erin<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-left-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding-top: 3pt; padding-right: 0cm; padding-bottom: 0cm; padding-left: 0cm; "><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Stoves [<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of</b>Marc-Antoine Pare<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, August 22, 2013 8:34 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[Stoves] Blue Flame -- Natural Draft -- Rice Husk<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US">Hi everyone,<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US">I've managed to repeat blue flames consistently in a rice husk stove using only natural draft.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US">Anyone seen this before? I am only aware of forced air stoves that achieve blue flames.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US">The photo below is just a teaser. The lighting is terrible and you can't make out the column of blue flame because I'm shooting straight down.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US">The smell is also quite motivating. Usually you get acquainted with the "smell of defeat" with rice husk, since poor combustion smells quite strong. So far, achieving odor on par with forced air units.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US">More soon...<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US">This will be part of a completely Open Source project<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US"><img border="0" width="267" height="237" id="_x0000_i1025" alt="Inline image 1" apple-width="yes" apple-height="yes" src="cid:image001.png@01CEA8C3.09B2E090"><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US">marc<o:p></o:p></span></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US"><a href="http://notwandering.com" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">notwandering.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br><br></div></span></div><br></div></body></html>