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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#003300'>Dear Crispin,<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#003300'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#003300'>As this is one small part of the end to end value system I keep it in the same heading. But a stretch -: )<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#003300'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#003300'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#003300'>You say ‘consider the actual heat used’ but that is impossible to determine with all the variables. I agree it would be nice to be able to do that but just trying to do that (trying for so so many years…) creates so many variables we end up with nothing. As to HHV or LHV; if that is determined by guessing (look up) the H value and providing the value – it is no different than the HHV so fine with me. We can say all biomass has 6% hydrogen and go with that or all agree on using a specific table. But to really use LHV we need an H test (if I understand this) and few labs have the equipment and just another variable that is unnecessary if (I propose) we do not plan to determine the actual heating used. We just need a ‘number’ that is easy to get and we all get that same number from the same fuel no matter where we are. <o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#003300'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#003300'>Moisture is harder for me to understand how to deal with. I think we need to determine the energy used / task based on dry fuel weight. But no fuel is dry. So we need to report the moisture of the fuel used but should not normalize the results to wet values as that creates another variable. If we show it takes more fuel to do a task when the fuel is wet perhaps with experimenting they will find they get better results if they first dry the fuel. Or we compare stoves all using fuels with 10% moisture but results based on ‘dry’ fuel put into the stove. <o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#003300'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#003300'>Crispin – you have terms to describe things but they should not be used for what I am saying because what I am saying needs new words so to not confuse the issue. I agree it would be nice to determine actual energy used BUT I propose a part of the fuel we can Fraction out (pipe). Not the perfect system you and other thermo-engineers are talking about and using their vocabulary. <o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#003300'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#003300'>You mention system used for different fuels – like what? Are you talking beyond biomass? <o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#003300'>You mention Add-on features as being required in addition to a Good-to-Excellent efficiency rating – I agree -but not connected. <o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#003300'>One pot or two pots – that is just the Task. Energy per Task, two pots, one pot, frying whatever the task is.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#003300'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#003300'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#003300'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#003300'>Frank<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#003300'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#003300'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#003300'>Frank Shields<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#003300'>Control Laboratories; Inc.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#003300'>42 Hangar Way<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#003300'>Watsonville, CA 95076<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#003300'>(831) 724-5422 tel<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#003300'>(831) 724-3188 fax<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#003300'>frank@biocharlab.com<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#003300'>www.controllabs.com<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#003300'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#003300'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#003300'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#003300'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#003300'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#003300'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Crispin Pemberton-Pigott<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 06, 2013 12:52 PM<br><b>To:</b> 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] entire end to end value system<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Dear Frank<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>You are on the right track but there are good reasons to consider the actual heat used when claiming an efficiency, that than the HHV.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>It may surprise you to know there is a metric in our definition set that is the PHV (potential heating value). That is the potential heat that could be derived from a fuel if you dried it completely first.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>In your village level analyses that should be applied in some cases of assessment. If the fuel was dried first it is a very different amount of net energy than if it was used as fresh-cut wet fuel. The difference would pre-treatment by drying it first.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The HHV is misleading and that is who people do not use it for applications where the heat level is about 100C. In the USA the heating and air conditioning guys do not use 100C they use 150 C on the basis that the 50 degree difference is pretty useless for doing work.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#993366'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in'><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#993366'>1)</span></b><b><span style='font-size:7.0pt;color:#993366'> </span></b><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#993366'>How much forest does a village use per year? To reduce this we need to know….<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in'><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#993366'>2)</span></b><b><span style='font-size:7.0pt;color:#993366'> </span></b><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#993366'>How much does each household use (equals sum). To reduce this we need to know the difference in use for the ones using more and the ones using less. <o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in'><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#993366'>3)</span></b><b><span style='font-size:7.0pt;color:#993366'> </span></b><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#993366'>Of this list (leave doors open, pre-dry wood, stove types, cooking more of a type of food …. , to reduce we need to zero in on each and optimize the process. Lets take stoves.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>So that is a macro look at the village energy use. Did you know that is the Nat Johnson did – in detail?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in'><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#993366'>4)</span></b><b><span style='font-size:7.0pt;color:#993366'> </span></b><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#993366'>For stove efficiency we need only two numbers; a) wood used per b) task completed. We convert ‘wood’ to energy units’ for calculating purposes.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>That has value but to compare one stove with another before getting to the field we need metrics that can be applied to multiple fuels and different stoves that may have 1 or more pots. That is what makes for an interesting challenge. A good example is what happens if we change stoves and the new one is more fuel efficient per task but takes twice as long and four times as much time and attention?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>We need metrics to say that ‘those people will not spend money on that device as it is too slow and inconvenient. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Similarly some stoves are not very safe. Nat Johnson rated the open fore for safety and it is nothing like the worst stove out there. For one reason, it can’t fall down.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in'><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#993366'>1)</span></b><b><span style='font-size:7.0pt;color:#993366'> </span></b><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>…</span></b><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#993366'>A calorimeter or ‘look-up’ is used for the HHV and moisture for dry weight. Using the LHV means we need to add hydrogen (another test variable) and not needed for the purpose of comparing stoves. <o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>We have to use the LHV because that is the available heat. We should not use heat that is not available to do an efficiency calculation.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>>…</span></b><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#993366'>Say ‘fraction of the total energy’ (FTV) used. This gives us FTV energy efficiency values (FTVEV). </span></b><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>That is the ‘system efficiency’; or the overall efficiency comparing what goes in and what gets done. That is how you do it if you want to predict the draw of fuel from the available supply (fuel consumption).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>That is the metric people who read stoves tests think they are getting when they are given the heat transfer efficiency. And that is a problem. It is an ‘efficiency’ but there is more than one. The UNFCCC has the problem built into the GEF/CDM mechanism.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Regards<br>Crispin<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></body></html>