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<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">Nathan
and all,</SPAN></B></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt"><FONT
size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Nathan said "I agree that the pot contents
can affect the likelihood of tipping, as well as other considerations such
as<STRONG><U> fuel loading</U></STRONG> and utensils resting on the
stove"<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"
/><o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">What
fuel loading problems do you see for stove bumping and
tipping?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">I
was working on a top lit combustor and since one of the problems with
batch-fueled stoves is cutting fuel down to size I thought I would add a stick
burning port so make the stove more flexible. For sticks to work with my design
the port needed be about 6” up from the bottom. This is just above the hot
charcoal but high enough to get good combustion air.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">With
the Rocket stove the sticks are close to the ground and this looks safer to me
but long sticks protruding out 1/3 the way up looks
dangerous.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">When
I put the sticks in they seemed to burn ok, the ignition was good they burst
into flame and the exhaust looked clear, but the sticks protruding out looked
like a trip lever that could easily shake the pot off the stove if anyone bumped
into the sticks. I have not abandoned the idea, a stove that will do
batch-fueled and also burn sticks would be more flexible, especially for
extending cooking time after the batch has gone to char, but I do not see a
solution at this time, except shorter sticks I suppose. Cutting sticks down to
18” or so would be easier than cutting them down to 6”.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">This
does not seem like it would be a problem for my larger commercial/institutional
stove which is heavy enough to be stable even with a bump on a sticks, so I am
going to add a stick port to my next commercial size cooker to see how it works.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">Is
this the fuel loading problem you mentioned?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">Do
you think that moving a hot pot off the stove to add fuel is the
problem?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">If
not what fuel loading problem do you see?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">Safety
is a big issue for me. There is nothing like screwing up to focus your mind on
danger. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">Lanny<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=NathanJohnson@asu.edu href="mailto:NathanJohnson@asu.edu">Nathan
Johnson</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org>"><stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org></A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, September 24, 2013 7:23
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] Stove tipping:
Stoves Digest, Vol 37, Issue 27</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Hi Crispin, Lanny --
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I agree that the pot contents can affect the likelihood of tipping, as
well as other considerations such as fuel loading and utensils resting on the
stove. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Best regards, </DIV>
<DIV>Nate</DIV>
<DIV><BR>
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class=Apple-style-span>
<DIV
style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space">--<BR>Nathan
Johnson<BR>Assistant Professor<BR>Department of Engineering &
Computing Systems<BR>Arizona State University<BR><BR><A
href="mailto:nathanjohnson@asu.edu">nathanjohnson@asu.edu</A><BR>480-727-5271</DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Sep 24, 2013, at 11:00 AM, <<A
href="mailto:stoves-request@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves-request@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>></DIV>
<DIV> wrote:</DIV><BR class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>Send Stoves mailing list submissions to<BR><SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><A
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR><BR>To
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via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<BR><SPAN
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class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN>stoves-owner@lists.bioenergylists.org<BR><BR>When
replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<BR>than "Re:
Contents of Stoves digest..."<BR><BR><BR>Today's
Topics:<BR><BR> 1. Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 37, Issue 24 (Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott)<BR> 2. Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 37, Issue 24
(Lanny Henson)<BR> 3. Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 37, Issue 24
(Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)<BR> 4. pot sizes /Re: Stoves
Digest, Vol 37, Issue 24 (Lanny Henson)<BR> 5. Re: pot sizes /Re:
Stoves Digest, Vol 37, Issue
24<BR> (Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott)<BR> 6. Re: Recorded EPA webinar and files
posted (Jetter, James)<BR> 7. Re: Recorded EPA webinar and files
posted (Jetter, James)<BR> 8. Re: pot sizes /Re: Stoves
Digest, Vol 37, Issue 24 (Lanny Henson)<BR> 9. Re: pot sizes /Re:
Stoves Digest, Vol 37, Issue
24<BR> (Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott)<BR><BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Message:
1<BR>Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 08:34:04 +0700<BR>From: "Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott@gmail.com><BR>To: "'Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves'"<BR><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre"
class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><BR>Subject:
Re: [Stoves] Stoves Digest, Vol 37, Issue 24<BR>Message-ID:
<005a01ceb8c6$2b535500$81f9ff00$@gmail.com><BR>Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<BR><BR>Dear Nate<BR><BR><BR><BR>I am
experimenting with a different form of stability as the chances of a<BR>pot
tipping over are not as great as that of a pot falling off. If
the<BR>support triangle or square of a stove is relatively then putting on a
large<BR>diameter pot is dangerous because it easily falls over spilling hot
water on<BR>everything and everyone.<BR><BR><BR><BR>We are looking at a rice
steaming soblok as the most dangerous local cooking<BR>container. It has a
hollow space at the bottom where water is boiled<BR>continuously, a platform
for holding the rice which is more dense than<BR>water, and a tall pot with
little space above. When tilted the centre of<BR>gravity moves more than it
would if there was no steamer section.<BR><BR><BR><BR>When that same pot is
used for boiling water it is relative tall for its<BR>diameter. When tilted
the water shifts to the outside moving the CG more<BR>than the tilt of a
solid object.<BR><BR><BR><BR>I was thinking of a spec whereby the pot
supports should be adequate to<BR>cause the water to spill out of an 80%
full pot before falling over. It is a<BR>test that can be done
mathematically as well as
practically.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Interested?<BR><BR><BR><BR>Regards<BR><BR>Crispin
in Jakarta<BR><BR><BR><BR>From: Stoves
[mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of<BR>Nathan
Johnson<BR>Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 11:28 PM<BR>To:
<stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><BR>Subject: Re: [Stoves] Stoves
Digest, Vol 37, Issue 24<BR><BR><BR><BR>Hi Lanny,
<BR><BR><BR><BR>There are two methods and metrics commonly used to
measure the<BR>susceptibility of a stove from tipping over<BR><BR>1) method
-- with a stove standing vertically, tilt the stove to one side<BR>until it
falls over; metric -- the angle that the stove can be tilted away<BR>from
vertical before it tips over on its own (typically used for
portable<BR>stoves)<BR><BR>2) method -- apply a specified horizontal force
to the stove; metric -- if<BR>the stove tilts, moves, deforms, or falls over
when the force is applied<BR>(typically used for larger stationary
stoves)<BR><BR><BR><BR>Protocols should not specify the required size of the
base to prevent<BR>tipping. That decision is left to the designer based on
his/her findings<BR>from the safety tests. <BR><BR><BR><BR>Most protocols do
not require pots present on the stove. Yet, as you note, a<BR>pot can affect
the stove's risk of tipping. No doubt all aspects of the<BR>cooking
system--stove, user, pots/utensils, kitchen--affect cooking safety.<BR>Many
people in the stove community tend to consider the larger contexts
that<BR>influence the efficacy of technical designs. I have a similar
viewpoint, and<BR>chose to include the stove when developing a new set of
safety guidelines<BR>tailored to biomass cookstoves. You can find my work on
stove safety
here<BR>http://community.cleancookstoves.org/user_content/files/003/052/3052100/a8d6<BR>6ebfa9745553fb1d971160a282d4-bssp1.0.pdf
The text is copied from my Master's<BR>Thesis. Let me know if you want a
copy of the full text. <BR><BR><BR><BR>Best regards,
<BR><BR>Nate<BR><BR><BR><BR>--<BR>Nathan Johnson<BR>Assistant
Professor<BR>Department of Engineering & Computing Systems<BR>Arizona
State University<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>-------------- next part
--------------<BR>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<BR>URL:
<http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20130924/1539c8d4/attachment-0001.html><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message:
2<BR>Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 02:30:13 -0400<BR>From: "Lanny Henson"
<lannych@bellsouth.net><BR>To: "Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves"<BR><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre"
class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><BR>Subject:
Re: [Stoves] Stoves Digest, Vol 37, Issue 24<BR>Message-ID:
<48033C5985AA4F74B3B992F1569D2287@HP><BR>Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"<BR><BR>That is what I was thinking, I had already
started typing a note. I think the hazard of a bump and spill or
splash is more likely than a tip over. A bump Like someone falling against
the stove could dislodge the pot but not tip over the stove. The pot
holders, the shape of the cook top and the foot print could affect the
bump/spill/splash hazard.<BR><BR>I am thinking that the height with a pot of
2 to 2.5 times the width of the base would be safe but 3 or 4 times
would be getting dangerous. <BR><BR>This is for household size stoves, with
larger stoves, you are less likely to have a force large enough to affect
the stove.<BR><BR> ----- Original Message ----- <BR> From: Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott <BR> To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
<BR> Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 9:34 PM<BR> Subject: Re:
[Stoves] Stoves Digest, Vol 37, Issue 24<BR><BR><BR> Dear
Nate<BR><BR><BR><BR> I am experimenting with a different form of
stability as the chances of a pot tipping over are not as great as that of a
pot falling off. If the support triangle or square of a stove is relatively
then putting on a large diameter pot is dangerous because it easily falls
over spilling hot water on everything and everyone.<BR><BR><BR><BR> We
are looking at a rice steaming soblok as the most dangerous local cooking
container. It has a hollow space at the bottom where water is boiled
continuously, a platform for holding the rice which is more dense than
water, and a tall pot with little space above. When tilted the centre of
gravity moves more than it would if there was no steamer
section.<BR><BR><BR><BR> When that same pot is used for boiling water
it is relative tall for its diameter. When tilted the water shifts to the
outside moving the CG more than the tilt of a solid
object.<BR><BR><BR><BR> I was thinking of a spec whereby the pot
supports should be adequate to cause the water to spill out of an 80% full
pot before falling over. It is a test that can be done mathematically as
well as
practically.<BR><BR><BR><BR> Interested?<BR><BR><BR><BR> Regards<BR><BR> Crispin
in Jakarta<BR><BR><BR><BR> From: Stoves
[mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Nathan
Johnson<BR> Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 11:28 PM<BR> To:
<stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><BR> Subject: Re: [Stoves]
Stoves Digest, Vol 37, Issue 24<BR><BR><BR><BR> Hi Lanny,
<BR><BR><BR><BR> There are two methods and metrics commonly used
to measure the susceptibility of a stove from tipping over<BR><BR> 1)
method -- with a stove standing vertically, tilt the stove to one side until
it falls over; metric -- the angle that the stove can be tilted away from
vertical before it tips over on its own (typically used for portable
stoves)<BR><BR> 2) method -- apply a specified horizontal force to the
stove; metric -- if the stove tilts, moves, deforms, or falls over when the
force is applied (typically used for larger stationary
stoves)<BR><BR><BR><BR> Protocols should not specify the required size
of the base to prevent tipping. That decision is left to the designer based
on his/her findings from the safety tests. <BR><BR><BR><BR> Most
protocols do not require pots present on the stove. Yet, as you note, a pot
can affect the stove's risk of tipping. No doubt all aspects of the cooking
system--stove, user, pots/utensils, kitchen--affect cooking safety. Many
people in the stove community tend to consider the larger contexts that
influence the efficacy of technical designs. I have a similar viewpoint, and
chose to include the stove when developing a new set of safety guidelines
tailored to biomass cookstoves. You can find my work on stove safety here
http://community.cleancookstoves.org/user_content/files/003/052/3052100/a8d66ebfa9745553fb1d971160a282d4-bssp1.0.pdf
The text is copied from my Master's Thesis. Let me know if you want a copy
of the full text. <BR><BR><BR><BR> Best regards,
<BR><BR> Nate<BR><BR><BR><BR> --<BR> Nathan
Johnson<BR> Assistant Professor<BR> Department of Engineering
& Computing Systems<BR> Arizona State
University<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR><BR> _______________________________________________<BR> Stoves
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<http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20130924/661d66dc/attachment-0001.html><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message:
3<BR>Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 16:17:53 +0700<BR>From: "Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott@gmail.com><BR>To: "'Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves'"<BR><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre"
class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><BR>Subject:
Re: [Stoves] Stoves Digest, Vol 37, Issue 24<BR>Message-ID:
<059001ceb906$f4c81a20$de584e60$@gmail.com><BR>Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<BR><BR>Dear Lanny<BR><BR><BR><BR>It is
unusual to find a pot that is taller than it is in diameter. I
can't<BR>think of one in common use by ordinary people.<BR><BR><BR><BR>But a
soblok (rice steamer) is about 'square'. If you are familiar with<BR>engine
stroke and bore, the common pots are 'oversquare'. <BR><BR><BR><BR>The
implications are two: they are not all that tall, and the water
sloshes<BR>to the side and over the lip with relatively greater ease per
unit volume<BR>(per degree of tilt).<BR><BR><BR><BR>The question of safety
includes the pot supports and how spread out they<BR>are. A large diameter
pot on a small support circle is dangerous. On 3<BR>instead of 4 supports is
more dangerous again.<BR><BR><BR><BR>That is what I want to see tested.
There are numbers that can be applied<BR>because the centre of gravity (CG)
dominates the safe angle of
tilt.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Regards<BR><BR>Crispin<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>That is
what I was thinking, I had already started typing a note. I
think<BR>the hazard of a bump and spill or splash is more likely than a tip
over. A<BR>bump Like someone falling against the stove could dislodge the
pot but not<BR>tip over the stove. The pot holders, the shape of the cook
top and the foot<BR>print could affect the bump/spill/splash
hazard.<BR><BR>I am thinking that the height with a pot of 2 to 2.5
times the width of the<BR>base would be safe but 3 or 4 times would be
getting dangerous. <BR><BR>This is for household size stoves, with larger
stoves, you are less likely<BR>to have a force large enough to affect the
stove. <BR><BR>-------------- next part --------------<BR>An HTML attachment
was scrubbed...<BR>URL:
<http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20130924/46950efb/attachment-0001.html><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message:
4<BR>Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 08:59:29 -0400<BR>From: "Lanny Henson"
<lannych@bellsouth.net><BR>To: "Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves"<BR><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre"
class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><BR>Subject:
[Stoves] pot sizes /Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 37, Issue 24<BR>Message-ID:
<55956F20F517481CAB6957144E430624@HP><BR>Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"<BR><BR>Crispin and all,<BR>You mentioned pot
sizes.<BR>There are stock pots, sauce pots and brazier pots.<BR>Does you pot
fit in one of these categories?<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">From photos it looks like most pots used in
developing areas are in the "sauce pot" category but many also use stock
pots for the larger 60 liter and 100 liter size.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>Links to
Winco pot sizes. Different brands are different sizes but are close to the
same size.<BR><BR>Stock
pots<BR>http://www.wincous.com/search.asp?BigClassName=&SmallClassName=&keyword=stock+pots&Submit.x=36&Submit.y=9<BR>Sauce
pots<BR>http://www.wincous.com/search.asp?BigClassName=&SmallClassName=&keyword=sauce+pot&Submit.x=30&Submit.y=17<BR>brazier
pots<BR>http://www.wincous.com/search.asp?BigClassName=&SmallClassName=&keyword=braziers&Submit.x=20&Submit.y=16<BR><BR>I
am using a 40 quart sauce pot with the SLC but the pot shell is tall enough
to hold a 60 qt stock pot which is about the same
diameter.<BR>Lanny<BR><BR><BR> ----- Original Message -----
<BR> From: Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <BR> To: 'Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves' <BR> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2013 5:17
AM<BR> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Stoves Digest, Vol 37, Issue
24<BR><BR><BR> Dear Lanny<BR><BR><BR><BR> It is unusual to find a
pot that is taller than it is in diameter. I can't think of one in common
use by ordinary people.<BR><BR><BR><BR> But a soblok (rice steamer) is
about 'square'. If you are familiar with engine stroke and bore, the common
pots are 'oversquare'. <BR><BR><BR><BR> The implications are two: they
are not all that tall, and the water sloshes to the side and over the lip
with relatively greater ease per unit volume (per degree of
tilt).<BR><BR><BR><BR> The question of safety includes the pot supports
and how spread out they are. A large diameter pot on a small support circle
is dangerous. On 3 instead of 4 supports is more dangerous
again.<BR><BR><BR><BR> That is what I want to see tested. There are
numbers that can be applied because the centre of gravity (CG) dominates the
safe angle of
tilt.<BR><BR><BR><BR> Regards<BR><BR> Crispin<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR> That
is what I was thinking, I had already started typing a note. I think
the hazard of a bump and spill or splash is more likely than a tip over. A
bump Like someone falling against the stove could dislodge the pot but not
tip over the stove. The pot holders, the shape of the cook top and the foot
print could affect the bump/spill/splash hazard.<BR><BR> I am thinking
that the height with a pot of 2 to 2.5 times the width of the base
would be safe but 3 or 4 times would be getting dangerous.
<BR><BR> This is for household size stoves, with larger stoves, you are
less likely to have a force large enough to affect the stove.
<BR><BR><BR><BR>------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR><BR> _______________________________________________<BR> Stoves
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5<BR>Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 20:15:35 +0700<BR>From: "Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott@gmail.com><BR>To: "'Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves'"<BR><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre"
class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><BR>Subject:
Re: [Stoves] pot sizes /Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 37, Issue
24<BR>Message-ID:
<05c401ceb928$29661770$7c324650$@gmail.com><BR>Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<BR><BR>In Africa most pots have pretty
standard or shall I say similar aspect<BR>ratios. A stewing pot tends to be
taller but it is rare to find a H/W<BR>(height/width) greater than one
outside a restaurant (where the save space<BR>on a crowded cooking
surface).<BR><BR><BR><BR>For the ones you have, do you find a consistent
ratio?<BR><BR><BR><BR>Regards<BR>Crispin<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Crispin and
all,<BR><BR>You mentioned pot sizes.<BR><BR>There are stock pots, sauce pots
and brazier pots.<BR><BR>Does you pot fit in one of these
categories?<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">From photos it looks like most pots used in
developing areas are in the<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>"sauce pot" category but many
also use stock pots for the larger 60 liter<BR>and 100 liter
size.<BR><BR>Links to Winco pot sizes. Different brands are different sizes
but are close<BR>to the same size.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Stock
pots<BR><BR>http://www.wincous.com/search.asp?BigClassName=<BR><http://www.wincous.com/search.asp?BigClassName=&SmallClassName=&keyword=sto<BR>ck+pots&Submit.x=36&Submit.y=9><BR>&SmallClassName=&keyword=stock+pots&Submit.x=36&Submit.y=9<BR><BR>Sauce
pots<BR><BR>http://www.wincous.com/search.asp?BigClassName=<BR><http://www.wincous.com/search.asp?BigClassName=&SmallClassName=&keyword=sau<BR>ce+pot&Submit.x=30&Submit.y=17><BR>&SmallClassName=&keyword=sauce+pot&Submit.x=30&Submit.y=17<BR><BR>brazier
pots<BR><BR>http://www.wincous.com/search.asp?BigClassName=<BR><http://www.wincous.com/search.asp?BigClassName=&SmallClassName=&keyword=bra<BR>ziers&Submit.x=20&Submit.y=16><BR>&SmallClassName=&keyword=braziers&Submit.x=20&Submit.y=16<BR><BR><BR><BR>I
am using a 40 quart sauce pot with the SLC but the pot shell is
tall<BR>enough to hold a 60 qt stock pot which is about the same
diameter.<BR><BR>Lanny<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>-------------- next part
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6<BR>Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 14:06:56 +0000<BR>From: "Jetter, James"
<Jetter.Jim@epa.gov><BR>To: "Ronal W. Larson"
<rongretlarson@comcast.net>, "Discussion of<BR><SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN>biomass<SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span> </SPAN>cooking stoves"
<stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><BR>Subject: Re: [Stoves] Recorded
EPA webinar and files posted<BR>Message-ID:<BR><SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre"
class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><2c51bee5c68c43519322157685b981cd@BLUPR09MB005.namprd09.prod.outlook.com><BR><SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><BR>Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<BR><BR>Ron,<BR><BR>Thank you for your
comments. In reply to your questions:<BR><BR>3. For the example on
Slide #46, I think we can say the "lost" energy is 50%, but we must also say
that the potential energy in the unburned char is 20%. If the char is
discarded or used for some purpose other than for fuel, such as for biochar,
then the "lost" energy is 70%.<BR><BR>4. I believe that we cannot add the
"apples" and the "oranges."<BR><BR>5. The best thermal efficiency we have
found for a char-producing TLUD stove with low-moisture wood pellet fuel and
with a pot skirt was 53% (average of cold-start and hot-start) with the WBT
credit for remaining char. Results were published and are available at
this link:<BR>http://ehs.sph.berkeley.edu/krsmith/?p=1387<BR>The ratio of
energy in remaining char to energy in fuel was approximately 40%. If the
char is "excluded" (discarded or used for a purpose other than for fuel),
then thermal efficiency is 32%. We can say the "lost" energy is 28% if the
remaining char is used for fuel, or the "lost" energy is 68% if the
remaining char is not used for fuel.<BR><BR>Hope this is
helpful.<BR><BR>Regards,<BR>Jim<BR><BR>From: Ronal W. Larson
[mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net] <BR>Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2013 5:27
PM<BR>To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves; Jetter, James<BR>Subject:
Re: [Stoves] Recorded EPA webinar and files posted<BR><BR>Jim and
"stoves":<BR><BR>? ?1. ?Thanks for the link (below) to the PPt. ?Very
complete added notes - I guess transcribed.<BR><BR>? ?2. ?My first question
relates to the "apples and oranges" discussion on slide #46, where you give
the helpful example of energy into the pot (apples) of 30% and in char
(oranges) of 20%, showing a calculated efficiency of .3/(1-.2) = .375
?(37.5%). ?Then warnings about not being legitimate to add the 30 and 20%.
?I am in support of what you have written.<BR><BR>? ?3. ?I want to ask on
the reverse side of this: ? What is the inefficiency?(lost, useless energy)
number? ?The obvious choices are the reciprocals of the above: ?62.5%, 70%,
and 50%. I can only justify 50% in my mind. Your choice? ? I ask to see if
char-making stove salespersons would be justified in talking of this
(lowest) 50%.?<BR><BR>? 4. ? A corollary question is ?- ?if we don't believe
that 62.5% or 70% are justified inefficiency numbers, then what do we call
the sum of "apples" and "oranges"?<BR><BR>? ?5. ?Some char-making stoves are
seeing more than 20% char by weight ?- so maybe "oranges" could be 40%. ?If
30% still made it to the pot, this would lead to the "main" reported stove
efficiency of .3/(1-.4)=.5 (50%) and the choices for inefficiency become 50%
(100 minus number to left), 70% ?(no change, by assumption on apples), and
(100-30-40)=30%. ?This done only to show that the "sales pitch" differences
can be larger than in your example. ?The question is what is the smallest
inefficiency numbers you have measured yet for char-making stoves (along
with the number of "apples" and "oranges" to come up with that
number)<BR><BR>? ?Again - thanks for all you are doing.
?<BR><BR>Ron<BR><BR><BR>On Sep 21, 2013, at 3:35 PM, "Jetter, James"
<Jetter.Jim@epa.gov> wrote:<BR><BR><BR>To All,<BR><BR>Thanks to those
who joined us for the webinar on August 29, and thanks to the Global
Alliance for Clean Cookstoves for hosting.<BR><BR>The recorded webinar,
presentation slides with notes, and draft spreadsheet have been posted for
your information, review, and
comments:<BR>http://community.cleancookstoves.org/communities/forums/viewtopic/22/33/207?post_id=357#p357<BR><BR>The
purpose of the webinar was to:<BR>??Provide an update on the EPA cookstove
testing project<BR>??Present a format (EPA spreadsheet) for sharing
data<BR>??Discuss test methods<BR>??Focus on example testing results for a
batch-fueled pyrolytic TLUD (top-lit up-draft) stove<BR>??Solicit further
comments on methods, spreadsheet, and data sharing<BR><BR>Please let me know
if you have any further comments by Oct. 11. ?My email address is:
jetter.jim@epa.gov<BR><BR>Regards,<BR>Jim
Jetter<BR><BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message:
7<BR>Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 14:39:16 +0000<BR>From: "Jetter, James"
<Jetter.Jim@epa.gov><BR>To: "stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"<BR><SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre"
class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><BR>Subject:
Re: [Stoves] Recorded EPA webinar and files posted<BR>Message-ID:<BR><SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre"
class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><0fe8e632039a4ca9a74a3559535a0958@BLUPR09MB005.namprd09.prod.outlook.com><BR><SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><BR>Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<BR><BR>Hello Nolbert,<BR><BR>The link on
Slide #22 should take you directly to the published paper and supporting
information:<BR>http://ehs.sph.berkeley.edu/krsmith/?p=1387<BR><BR>I will
also send you the files in a separate email
message.<BR><BR>Regards,<BR>Jim<BR><BR>Message: 11<BR>Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2013
19:35:37 +0300<BR>From: Nolbert Muhumuza <muhumuza@gmail.com><BR>To:
Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<BR><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre"
class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><BR>Subject:
Re: [Stoves] Recorded EPA webinar and files posted<BR>Message-ID:<BR><SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre"
class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><CAOhP5jzjgyoNeg-7B+hDGLZGT_3RN8HeeW+Hte4i5UTMUfdfWg@mail.gmail.com><BR>Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<BR><BR>Hello Jetter,<BR><BR>Slide #22 says
you previously tested a batch-fueled TLUD report and<BR>gave a link of the
report. I have tried to find this report on the<BR>website but cant find
it.<BR>Could you kindly send me a more specific link or send it to
me?<BR><BR>Nolbert.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message:
8<BR>Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 11:14:01 -0400<BR>From: "Lanny Henson"
<lannych@bellsouth.net><BR>To: "Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves"<BR><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre"
class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><BR>Subject:
Re: [Stoves] pot sizes /Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 37, Issue
24<BR>Message-ID:
<8F70AAA20AA445EF9BBBAA02946583CB@HP><BR>Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"<BR><BR>Stock pot about 1; <BR><BR>sauce pot about .63;
<BR><BR>and most braziers are about 15 cm tall for all the different
diameters which is .43 for small size to .26 for larger
size.<BR><BR> ----- Original Message ----- <BR> From: Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott <BR> To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
<BR> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2013 9:15 AM<BR> Subject: Re:
[Stoves] pot sizes /Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 37, Issue 24<BR><BR><BR> In
Africa most pots have pretty standard or shall I say similar aspect ratios.
A stewing pot tends to be taller but it is rare to find a H/W (height/width)
greater than one outside a restaurant (where the save space on a crowded
cooking surface).<BR><BR><BR><BR> For the ones you have, do you find a
consistent
ratio?<BR><BR><BR><BR> Regards<BR> Crispin<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR> Crispin
and all,<BR><BR> You mentioned pot sizes.<BR><BR> There are stock
pots, sauce pots and brazier pots.<BR><BR> Does you pot fit in one of
these categories?<BR><BR> From photos it looks like most pots used in
developing areas are in the "sauce pot" category but many also use stock
pots for the larger 60 liter and 100 liter size.<BR><BR> Links to Winco
pot sizes. Different brands are different sizes but are close to the same
size.<BR><BR><BR><BR> Stock
pots<BR><BR> http://www.wincous.com/search.asp?BigClassName=&SmallClassName=&keyword=stock+pots&Submit.x=36&Submit.y=9<BR><BR> Sauce
pots<BR><BR> http://www.wincous.com/search.asp?BigClassName=&SmallClassName=&keyword=sauce+pot&Submit.x=30&Submit.y=17<BR><BR> brazier
pots<BR><BR> http://www.wincous.com/search.asp?BigClassName=&SmallClassName=&keyword=braziers&Submit.x=20&Submit.y=16<BR><BR><BR><BR> I
am using a 40 quart sauce pot with the SLC but the pot shell is tall enough
to hold a 60 qt stock pot which is about the same
diameter.<BR><BR> Lanny<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR><BR> _______________________________________________<BR> Stoves
mailing list<BR><BR> to Send a Message to the list, use the email
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more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
site:<BR> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/<BR><BR>-------------- next
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9<BR>Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2013 00:14:54 +0700<BR>From: "Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott@gmail.com><BR>To: "'Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves'"<BR><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre"
class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><BR>Subject:
Re: [Stoves] pot sizes /Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 37, Issue
24<BR>Message-ID:
<05f901ceb949$98c128f0$ca437ad0$@gmail.com><BR>Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<BR><BR>So the stock pot would be a good one
for a stability test. What are the<BR>dimensions? Does it have a large
radius when the side connects to the<BR>bottom? That reduces the
footprint.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Thanks<BR><BR>Crispin<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Stock
pot about 1; <BR><BR>sauce pot about .63; <BR><BR>and most braziers
are about 15 cm tall for all the different diameters which<BR>is .43 for
small size to .26 for larger size.<BR><BR><BR><BR>In Africa most pots have
pretty standard or shall I say similar aspect<BR>ratios. A stewing pot tends
to be taller but it is rare to find a H/W<BR>(height/width) greater than one
outside a restaurant (where the save space<BR>on a crowded cooking
surface).<BR><BR><BR><BR>For the ones you have, do you find a consistent
ratio?<BR><BR><BR><BR>Regards<BR>Crispin<BR><BR>-------------- next part
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