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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Lanny,<br>
<br>
Your reservations about the water heating with TLUDs reflect our
society with affluence and so much convenience. But in the low
income (extremely low compared with American and European
incomes), the concept of heating a quantity of water for prompt
usage (no storage = no insulation) and for quite small tasks
(small quantities that are different from our bath-laundry-kitchen
needs) is potentially highly viable. <br>
<br>
There are clearly at least two "sets of needs for hot water", one
for the truly poor (not Americans who are poor) and another for
those with financial resources (some of which are in the
developing societies.) All of our efforts are needed.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
On 10/5/2013 12:04 PM, Lanny Henson wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:8B7CD441CCC1439DBBE2D2637096ADFC@HP"
type="cite">
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<div><font size="4">5 or 10 liters is not enough water for a bath,
laundry, kitchen clean up and hot tea for a family. I am
thinking a stove that will heat a 20 liter pot would be more
practical. A 40 quart would be even better but would
probably be out of the price range.</font></div>
<div><font size="4">And I wonder if a TLUD is the best stove for a
water heater. Aren't they one shot and then you have to
reload. How about a stove that will hold water hot for a long
period with the ability to throw in a few chunks of wood in
every hour or so to maintain the heat.</font></div>
<div><font size="4">And dispensing is an issue to consider,
probably just dipping will be most practical.</font></div>
<div><font size="4">Lanny</font></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT:
5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color:
black"><b>From:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="crispinpigott@gmail.com"
href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a>
</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves</a> ; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="muhumuza@gmail.com" href="mailto:muhumuza@gmail.com">Nolbert
Muhumuza</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Cc:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" title="biochar@yahoogroups.com"
href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a>
</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, October 05,
2013 12:13 PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Water
heating with TLUDs</div>
<div><br>
</div>
Dear Paul and All
<div><br>
</div>
<div>You are correct re the kitchens.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So with the cat out of the bag, there will be a water
heating category separate from stoves and it is highly suited
to TLUD's that require no attention. I suggest the 5 to 10
litre capacity range - one does not need to fill it of
course. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Because I know it is quite possible to get a very high heat
transfer efficiency with a gas flame from biomass, the target
performance will be high to qualify for a subsidy. It will be
subject to the usual system efficiency calculation so if you
want to make char it has to come out of energy savings.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I view them as fuel, fire and forget systems. No
interaction should be required from the operator after
ignition.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>To share some ideas, think of it this way: to boil 5 litres
of water takes about 2 MJ of heat. At 50% system efficiency
that takes about 250-300 g of fuel so that sets the combustion
chamber size. it is going to have to burn pretty much
completely in about 15-20 minutes (rate of 1.2 kg/hr). If it
makes a significant amount of char, say 15%, the HTE will have
to be higher and the fuel load larger.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>You get the idea. I think if a skirt is used it can serve
as a chimney and it will speed the combustion rate which will
improve the heat flux rate (watts/cm^2) to boil faster.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Please give it some thought - how you would solves0 this
design problem.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards</div>
<div>Crispin<br>
<br>
<div id="1362146315393-sig-id">Sent from my BlackBerry®
PlayBook™<br>
<br>
</div>
<br>
Nolbert at Awamu and to all Stovers <br>
<br>
[And i am sending this to a few others who are not on the
Stoves Listserv. And sending it <br>
to the Biochar List because it shows a very good way to have a
useful task (heating water) while using TLUD<br>
technology to make biochar.]<br>
<br>
You received this whole message from the Stoves Listserv, but
I am emphasizing part of it. <br>
Crispin wrote in reference to Indonesia:<br>
<div class="moz-forward-container">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>It means about 70 of the whole population is using wood for heating water,
with a smaller fraction using it more and more as income decreases.
Cecil says kitchens are becoming divided into a clean</pre>
</blockquote>
[ he probably mistyped this and it meant to say "UNclean or
rustic or 'outside' (that I observed in India) "] <br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>portion with wood and
dirty pots, and a clean side with LPG and clean pots. There is an
opportunity in the market for water-heating-only devices which are highly
suited to TLUD powering because the task is fixed and predictable, plus it
operates at full power all the time. Think of it as a biomass-powered
kettle.</pre>
</blockquote>
THIS is an extremely important niche for Awamu and for TLUDs
everywhere. Just one highly common, frequent (maybe even
multiple times per day) and useful application (in this case
water heating for bathing or for boiling to drink) to
provide sufficient market and demand for introducing the
TLUD technology to households and to schools. TLUD
convenience as pointed out by Crispin and the use of less
expensive fuel could turn the tide of acceptance in some
communities.<br>
<br>
We need to think of "kitchens" or separate areas where the
pots are black and that does not matter.<br>
<br>
Note that this is not just for boiling water for drinking,
which can be ANOTHER major utility of TLUD stoves.<br>
<br>
Doc<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<br>
<br>
-------- Original Message --------
<table class="moz-email-headers-table" border="0"
cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<th nowrap="nowrap" valign="baseline" align="right">Subject:
</th>
<td>Re: [Stoves] NE Biochar takes the C-cake</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th nowrap="nowrap" valign="baseline" align="right">Date:
</th>
<td>Sat, 05 Oct 2013 00:25:40 +0700</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th nowrap="nowrap" valign="baseline" align="right">From:
</th>
<td>Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com"><crispinpigott@gmail.com></a></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th nowrap="nowrap" valign="baseline" align="right">Reply-To:
</th>
<td>Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"><stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org></a></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th nowrap="nowrap" valign="baseline" align="right">To:
</th>
<td>'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves' <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"><stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org></a></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
<br>
<pre>Dear Ron
> Anything more on wood prices in town would be helpful. And for anything
in large quantities.
> Any data on the main cooking fuels if not char? Propane, electricity,
etc. Much wood?
The study just finished is being compiled. Early indications are that a
rough split of 40% cooking primarily with wood, 40% cooking primarily with
(subsidised) LPG, 20% with kerosene and electricity.
Of the 40% using LPG, 70% are using wood to heat water.
Of the 40% using wood, over 70% are using LPG to some extent, even in places
quite far from a supply.
It means about 70 of the whole population is using wood for heating water,
with a smaller fraction using it more and more as income decreases.
Cecil says kitchens are becoming divided into a clean portion with wood and
dirty pots, and a clean side with LPG and clean pots. There is an
opportunity in the market for water-heating-only devices which are highly
suited to TLUD powering because the task is fixed and predictable, plus it
operates at full power all the time. Think of it as a biomass-powered
kettle.
Regards
Crispin
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