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<th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">Subject:
</th>
<td>Shields E450c as a way to test char-making stoves (attn:
GACC testers)</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">Date: </th>
<td>Mon, 07 Oct 2013 00:13:17 -0500</td>
</tr>
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<th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">From: </th>
<td>Paul Anderson <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu"><psanders@ilstu.edu></a></td>
</tr>
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<th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">To: </th>
<td>Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"><stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org></a></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">CC: </th>
<td>Frank Shields <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:frank@compostlab.com"><frank@compostlab.com></a>, Jim Jetter
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Jetter.Jim@epamail.epa.gov"><Jetter.Jim@epamail.epa.gov></a>, David BERITAULT -
Geres Cambodia <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:d.beritault@geres.eu"><d.beritault@geres.eu></a>, KARSTEN
BECHTEL CREEC <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:karsten@tech.mak.ac.ug"><karsten@tech.mak.ac.ug></a>, Ranyee
Chiang <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rchiang@cleancookstoves.org"><rchiang@cleancookstoves.org></a>, Hugh
McLaughlin <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:wastemin1@verizon.net"><wastemin1@verizon.net></a>, Tami bond
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:yark@illinois.edu"><yark@illinois.edu></a>, Thomas Reed
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:tombreed2010@gmail.com"><tombreed2010@gmail.com></a>, Thomas Reed - 2013 address
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:tombreedxx@icloud.com"><tombreedxx@icloud.com></a></td>
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Stovers, especially the ones
concerned about HOW to test char-making (and batch loaded)
stoves.<br>
<br>
[[ The attachment is exactly the same content as this email
message, but in .docx format for ease of making editing comments
if needed, or for forwarding.]]<br>
<br>
Frank Shields has proposed an <b><u>alternative method for
efficiency testing of stoves that make charcoal </u></b>(including
the batch loaded ones.) His comments were made in 3 or 4
messages on the Stoves Listserv starting on 3 October 2013 under
the subject of: Re: [Stoves] Efficiencies for the rich
and poor.<br>
<br>
Below I have snipped the key parts and put them into
chronological order so that you can see the development of
Frank's thoughts. And I give a quick summary here of what I
call the Shields E450c method (proposed):<br>
<br>
1. Char-making stoves (including the TLUDs) do their cooking
(or provide data for efficiency testing) with the energy from
combustion of the pyrolytic gases produced inside the stove from
raw biomass. Factors of moisture content (MC) need to be taken
into account (as is already required in the other testing of
cookstoves, eg standard WBT).<br>
<br>
2. The temperature of 450 deg C is measured and established as
solid base temperature for the completion of the most of the
making of pyrolytic gases. Actually, between 400 C and 550 C
there is not a great deal of variation, and that variation could
be entered into the calculations IF that variation is considered
to be significant and IF the stoves reach that or higher
temperatures for sufficient and extended time in the pyrolytic
process. <br>
<br>
[We note that in current discussions about revisions to the WBT
regarding char-making stoves, there is NOT a discussion (that I
know of) of whether the chars taken out and weighed were created
at 400 or 500 or 600 C or whatever temperatures. If the
temperature is not crucial for that version of testing, the
temperature of char creation is probably not too critical as
long as it is in the 450 degree range or above. This could be
discussed by the experts IF the Shields method gains interest.]<br>
<br>
3. Therefore, in a stove efficiency test where there is
reasonable consistency in the yield of charcoal on a weight
basis from a known biomass, it is possible to determine the
"Energy of the combusted pyrolytic gases created when
temperatures were about 450 C or above". Frank calls this
E450c . And this is the energy that is available to do the
"work" of cooking. Some goes into the pot, and some is lost,
yielding an efficiency percentage. When you know the starting
weight of a particular fuel (with known MC), and you will know
the potential E450c energy available. It is directly related
to the already carefully determined energy content of so many
types of biomass. And that pyrolytic fraction (the E450c
energy) has been released when the pyrolytic process ends (very
clearly seen in these char-making stoves) and noted as number of
minutes. If you note the time that the boiling temperature is
reached, divide that by the total time and you have the
percentage of E450c energy that was expended to attain the boil.<br>
<br>
4. There is no attempt to assign a value (of energy or monetary
or social or climatic impact) to the produced char. <br>
<br>
To Frank I say "Thank you!!". Now the measurement experts can
read below the original messages and offer their comments.<br>
<br>
Note: Frank and I and Ron Larson and Hugh McLaughlin and Thomas
Reed and several others with interests in char-making stoves
will be together on 13 to 17 October (a week from now) at the
North American Biochar Symposium at Amherst University in
Massachusetts. The Shields E450c approach to measuring
efficiencies might be a topic for side discussions there. But
the real debate is within the IWA technical committees.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a>
<blockquote type="cite"><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Oct 3, 2013, at 3:54 PM, Frank Shields <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:frank@compostlab.com">frank@compostlab.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class="MsoNormal">
<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><cite><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#00802A;background:white;font-style:normal">Greetings Stovers,</span></cite><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><cite><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#00802A;background:white;font-style:normal"> </span></cite><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><cite><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#00802A;background:white;font-style:normal">Tom
Reed coauthored a book tilted An Atlas of Thermal Data (link below)
that explains the results of Thermogravimetric data on a wide variety of
biomass under different conditions. The results show a rapid decrease
in weight that then stabilizes around the 400c and mostly completed at
450c. Using Thermogravimetric analysis (TGA) on biomass can separate the
fuel into two distinct and repeatable fractions. The one fraction
between ambient temperature to 450c we know will be used during cooking
as once this restively low temperature is reached it has volatilized. It
needs no oxygen from outside and gets it all from the fuel to form a
gas then secondary air to completely combust. The fraction of fuel left
above 450c contains energy that may be used or left after cooking. To
compare efficiencies of stoves it seems to me we just need to use the
energy of the biomass fraction we know will be used and use that value
as the energy provided. If a stove is designed to use some char as added
energy all the better for that stove. We do not need to determine the
char left in the stove. We need to decide to use HHV or LHV but since we
are not testing for hydrogen and just using an agreed upon value it
doesn’t matter – as I see it.</span></cite></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Stoves [<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Ronal W. Larson
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 03, 2013 8:57 PM
<b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Efficiencies for the rich and poor.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal">Frank:<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> The folks working with char-making stoves are not going to understand this sentence at all: <i><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#00802A;background:white"> 'We do not need to determine the char left in the stove. </span></i><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#00802A;background:white">'</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#00802A;background:white"> </span>That
is as simple a measurement as you can find. Granted that most of the
weight loss is before 450 C, the weight is NOT constant as you keep
going higher in temperature You will have a fair shot at the
temperature achieved by measuring the weights in and out. But temp is
not the only variable, there is also the time at temperature, the size
of the fuel etc. See material in the Gaur-Reed Chapter 8.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p></div></blockquote>[Anderson interjects: I recognize Ron's concerns, but I believe
that the impacts will be minor compared to the overall accuracy of
the measurements.
<blockquote type="cite"><div><p class="MsoNormal">
Ron continues: I know people are trying hard to determine the peak pyrolysis
temperature from the characteristics of the char - besides weight
differences, there is density, water-adsorbing properties, pH, and
electrical conductivity in the "simple" (poor man) category. Some big
changes in conductivity can occur above a certain temp. Many people
would like to know the CEC characteristics, but I know nothing on that
measurement.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p></div>
I guess I am saying that the stove itself might serve as the "pipe"
you are describing [FOR USE IN LABORATORY MEASUREMENTS OF ENERGY IN BIOMASS]. If you have a good guess at the temperature of the
produced char, you have a reasonable estimate of its remaining energy
content, which is what I guess you are after. I don't have much hope
that any test with a "pipe" is going to tell you much about a particular
stove. [ANDERSON: But it will tell you about the particular fuel and be totally independent of the stove type or trying to boil water in the test.]</blockquote>
</pre>
On 10/4/2013 12:45 PM, Frank Shields wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:007001cec129$8d281fc0$a7785f40$@compostlab.com"
type="cite">
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<div class="WordSection1"><br>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">*This
I think important*<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I’m
thinking when we test stoves we should start with
knowing the weight of a pile of biomass. Then test and
determine the total energy450c (E450c) dry weight of the
pile. Weigh the remaining pile after each test to
determine the amount of E450c used for the task(s).
Using this volatile fraction as the measured energy
input (not total energy of the fuel) we can then
determine the amount of E450c it took to cook a pot of
rice without the need to subtract the energy in the char
left over. Once the biomass pile has been used up, the
sum of the E450c used should add up to the total [E450c]
in the starting biomass. The char left over for the
garden has no E450c so there is nothing to subtract from
the total E450c value of the starting biomass. But if
you want to know how much E450c was required to produce
it, just add up all the E450c used for the completed
tasks that left the char behind. All we need to do is
make sure the stove it [is] at or above 450c when the
task is completed so to make sure all E450c in the fuel
has been used. So simple….. (I think!).<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Frank<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Frank wrote in his next message:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">There
are two purposes to do a lot of testing to measure many
things including efficiency:<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">1)<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span></b><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Is
to learn about stoves, how they work, what chemistry is
taking place, where, why and for how long so improvements
can be made. <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">2)<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span></b><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The
sole purpose of comparing one stove to another. Money and
sales are at stake. Must be done right, cheap, with few
variables.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">It
seems EPA and past procedures are doing all the testing
for purpose one as much as purpose two. I am just
concentrating on purpose two. A stove has many factors
that increase (or decrease) efficiency. Using the E450c
fraction as a measure we have things like; insulation,
size of pot, pot gap, secondary air AND ability of the
stove to use some char to help aid in the task. If that
happens it shows up in better efficiency. We center around
the E450c energy value and do things that improve on it. <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
think purpose one is many different separate studies so to
control the variables. And certainly should not be
muddying the testing of efficiency when $$ and reputations
are involved. <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Regards<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Frank<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:007001cec129$8d281fc0$a7785f40$@compostlab.com"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Frank
Shields<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Control
Laboratories; Inc.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">42
Hangar Way<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Watsonville,
CA 95076<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">(831)
724-5422 tel<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">(831)
724-3188 fax<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:frank@biocharlab.com">frank@biocharlab.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="http://www.controllabs.com">www.controllabs.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></b>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">[Frank
>] The only thing that matters is us all being able
to come up with the same number. If we all have a TGA
and its calibrated we should be able to send a sample to
a bunch of labs and they all report back the same number
for E450c. It’s this value we give to the fuel. If
during the testing we use larger fuels pieces that take
longer for them to reach 450c in the field it doesn’t
matter. We go as long as the secondary flame is still
there because when that goes out nothing happens no
matter how much un-burned fuel is left. That just means
the stove is designed for smaller pieces or different
biomass or a re-design needed to handle the larger
pieces. The efficiency goes down because of that. It’s
the same as if the stove needs better insulation or a
change in the gap. <o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> <o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">In
most situations char is of secondary concern with the
first being what the task of the secondary flame is being
used for. If your main concern is char and its quality,
that is a different task. You want to know the efficiency
of making the best quality char. Meaning the E450c used
from the pile (weight) to produce good quality char. So
you determine the E450c used for different configurations
and compare the different chars produced for quality. Then
determine the E450c needed to produce that best char
(task). <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Regards<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Frank<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
</blockquote>
<br>
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