<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"><base href="x-msg://1570/"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Crispin and list and Alex<div><br></div><div> I suppose that this below might be a help - but I remain confused. I keep trying to insert the word charcoal (oranges in Jim Jetter's language) into this dialog and I don't see it below. Also I don't see it in a different but similar message from you today. </div><div><br></div><div> Could you clarify on whether you are or are not happy with Jim Jetter's slide 46 in the way in which intentional char production is occurring and Jim's reporting of that number - in energy units? </div><div><br></div><div> Not quite the same, but if a stove does cooking, space heating (new idea below) and makes charcoal - I assume that char would still be of zero value then?</div><div><br></div><div> Or how should the conscientious stove tester handle your phrase in the second row if he/she sees before him/her three (not two) piles: (assume partially torified) wood, char, ash? Is char in your first pile or the second or not in either?</div><div> '<span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; "><i>Energy in the fuel remaining, divided in to <b><u>two</u></b> portions: usable fuel and unusable waste"</i></span></div><div><br></div><div> I'd also like to better understand the burn cycle needed to get turn-down ratio - in your final sentence.</div><div><br></div><div>To Alex English - I am working on your head-of-a-pin question - but need the data above to answer fully.</div><div><br></div><div>Ron</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On Oct 13, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-CA" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; "><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Dear Ron<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Here are most of the metrics available from a good test:<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Energy reaching the pot (including the mass of the pot material)<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Energy in the fuel remaining, divided in to two portions: usable fuel and unusable waste<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Energy that escapes in heat that bypasses the pot and unburned H2, CO and H2S (etc) i.e. chemical losses.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> <o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">The calculable outputs are:<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Heat gained by the pot: quantity of heat Q, rate of heat gain Q’ and heat flux rate Q’’ (based on the size of the pot)<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Heat yielded by the fire considering chemical losses<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Energy consumption based on raw fuel consumed (potential total input energy )<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Overall thermal efficiency (pot gain divided by Energy consumption)<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Heat transfer efficiency (pot gain divided by heat yielded)<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Combustion efficiency (heat yielded divided by heat theoretically yieldable)<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Space heating efficiency (fire heat minus chemical losses and sensible heat losses, i.e. stack losses)<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Average fuel consumption rate<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Maximum power.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> <o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">If the burn cycle is correctly chosen, turn down ratio can be determined.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Regards<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Crispin<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span></div><div><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0mm 0mm; "><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Ronal W. Larson [mailto:rongretlarson@<a href="http://comcast.net">comcast.net</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Sunday, October 13, 2013 5:27 AM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Crispin Pemberton-Pigott; Discussion of biomass<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Stoves] Shields E450c as a way to test char-making stoves (attn: GACC testers)<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Crispin and list:<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> Yes. Comparing to wet wood makes no sense. But I repeat I want what Jim is already giving us - energy out over energy in. I especially want to know the inefficiency of the system. How much energy was totally lost.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Ron<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">On Oct 12, 2013, at 11:28 AM,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><br><br><o:p></o:p></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Is it the percentage in terms of the dry mass of fuel consumed?<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Crispin<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellpadding="0" width="100%" style="width: 656px; background-color: white; border-spacing: 0px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "><tbody><tr><td style="padding: 0.75pt; font-size: initial; text-align: initial; "><div id="_persistentHeader" style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0mm 0mm; "><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">Ronal W. Larson<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">Sent:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">Saturday, October 12, 2013 22:12<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">Discussion of biomass<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">Cc:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">Crispin Pemberton-Pigott; Frank Shields<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">Subject:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">Re: [Stoves] Shields E450c as a way to test char-making stoves (attn:<br>GACC testers)<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></td></tr></tbody></table><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div id="_originalContent"><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white; ">List, Crispin, Frank<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white; "> I want what Jim is producing already. Which of course is already giving the char mass and percentage. I also want the same in energy terms (oranges).<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white; ">Ron<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white; ">On Oct 11, 2013, at 7:55 PM, "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white; "><br><br><o:p></o:p></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Dear Ron and Frank</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">On the subject of working out how much char is produced:</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">You gather the char and weigh it and then you know.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Ron, would you prefer the char mass expressed as a % of the initial dry mass of fuel loaded?</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Thanks<br>Crispin</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></blockquote></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white; "><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></div></div></blockquote></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "></p></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>