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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Hi Dean,<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Anything as close to real world I am in favor of. So I agree about using the water boiling test as-is. <o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>But I do like the design of the method Alex described that included all the necessary checks that make for a good, repeatable test. Well designed. I may use it here for measuring heat increase in cubic meter size, self-heating compost bins with compost-char experiments. Thinking a coil of water filled tubing would work better getting a more representative reading than a thermometer stuck in the center. <o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>And maybe someday I will actually get to test some stoves.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Frank<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Frank Shields<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Control Laboratories; Inc.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>42 Hangar Way<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Watsonville, CA 95076<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>(831) 724-5422 tel<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>(831) 724-3188 fax<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>frank@biocharlab.com<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>www.controllabs.com<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Dean Still<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, October 13, 2013 3:38 PM<br><b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Thermal efficiency<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Hi Frank and Alex,<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Boiling 2.5 or 5 liters of water in a pot shows if the stove is capable of doing one of the tasks which are often needed for cooking food. It's important information. Boiling and simmering are both frequently needed when cooking. The WBT published by VITA was patterned after actual cooking tasks for good reasons.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Best,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Dean<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Frank Shields <<a href="mailto:frank@compostlab.com" target="_blank">frank@compostlab.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Dear Alex,</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'>I like it. Easy to calibrate a flow meter with a stop watch and volumetric flask and both temperature meters calibrated using the same temperature water to make sure they read the same. So we can all be on the same page using different equipment in different parts of the world. </span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'>So one thermometer is set, say 30c higher than the other and we plot the flow of water? Perhaps bucket filling with water on a balance being plotted? Or flow gauge? </span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Thanks</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Frank</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='color:#1F497D'>Frank Shields</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='color:#1F497D'>Control Laboratories; Inc.</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='color:#1F497D'>42 Hangar Way</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='color:#1F497D'>Watsonville, CA 95076</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='color:#1F497D'><a href="tel:%28831%29%20724-5422" target="_blank">(831) 724-5422</a> tel</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='color:#1F497D'><a href="tel:%28831%29%20724-3188" target="_blank">(831) 724-3188</a> fax</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='color:#1F497D'><a href="mailto:frank@biocharlab.com" target="_blank">frank@biocharlab.com</a></span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='color:#1F497D'><a href="http://www.controllabs.com" target="_blank">www.controllabs.com</a></span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Stoves [mailto:<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Alex English<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, October 13, 2013 10:54 AM<br><b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Thermal efficiency</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Crispin,<br><br>On the heat transfer side there are clearly a lot of variables. Get rid of them like we do with boilers. Use a sealed pot with its contents (water) kept at a constant temperature (example; either high ~90C in-95C out, with no condensation or low ~55C in-60C out, with some condensation or both) and a flow meter to measure the thermal work done. A modern automated three way valve controlling the flow through a heat exchanger can regulate the return temperature precisely.<br><br>The pot can be any pot with a non standards lid disc with in/out plumbing connections, glued with silicone to the top of the pot. It should withstand a few inches of water pressure with a stand pipe open to the atmosphere after the outflow thermocouple. The vapour losses then are outside of the measurement frame. The pot could be filled with water or be part filled and have a vapour/air head space. Flow rates and velocities could be high enough to eliminate biases between pots or to mimic natural convective patterns within the pot.<br><br>All you need is a whole bunch of disc lids from 20 to ??cm in diameter in 1cm increments, or custom make them as the required.<br><br>Or you can see how many different efficiencies you can fit on the head of a pin.<br><br>Heuristically yours,<br>Alex<br><br>On 13/10/2013 11:21 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Dear Friends<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>As we are, at the CAU stoves conference, talking about thermal efficiency tomorrow, here is something to think about.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>++++++++<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Efficiency is a ratio, but of what to what? Let us follow the heat and decide which ‘efficiency’ we want to report. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><ol start=1 type=1><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1'>Heat available in the raw fuel if it was to be burned completely<o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1'>Heat available in the dry portion of the raw fuel<o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1'>Heat available from the fire considering incomplete combustion<o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1'>Heat available to the pot, at the pot in the hot gas stream passing by<o:p></o:p></li></ol><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p><ol start=5 type=1><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'>Heat transferred to the pot – all of it<o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'>Heat transferred to the pot and subsequently lost from the pot into the surrounding environment<o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'>Heat absorbed the pot material changing its temperature<o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'>Heat absorbed by the water – all of it<o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'>Heat absorbed by the water changing its temperature <o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'>Heat absorbed by the water and evaporating water (whether the water is hot or not)<o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'>Heat absorbed by the water and lost from the water (by radiation, not by evaporation)<o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'>Heat absorbed into the food and being absorbed chemically (transforming it into cooked food)<o:p></o:p></li></ol><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>System efficiency [Overall thermal efficiency] is (7+9+10+12)/1. [When boiling water only #12=0]<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Heat transfer efficiency is …. ? Which one is the one you were thinking of when asked about ‘thermal efficiency’?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>+++++++++<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Regards<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Crispin<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Stoves mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br><br><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></div></body></html>