<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Kevin,<br>
<br>
When ALL of the fuel is consumed, then the fuel usage has a known
energy usage. No need to do additional calculations.<br>
<br>
And as Crispin and others have pointed out, efficiency is measured
in energy units, not in kg of wood or liters of liquid fuels. <br>
<br>
Simply report efficiencies in terms of both fuel usage and energy
usage for all stoves. <br>
<br>
Paul <br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
On 10/24/2013 12:20 PM, Kevin wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:EAEEB3F99EC5458CAC64437847A24821@usera594fda0bf"
type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
<meta name="GENERATOR" content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.23532">
<div><font face="Arial">Dear Paul</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">People do not buy, or collect, or prepare
ENERGY for a stove... they buy, or collect, or prepare FUEL</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">The input to a stove is FUEL, not ENERGY</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Lanny Henson has a very simple "Efficiency
Test"... he weighs his fuel beforehand, cooks up a batch of
Pinto Beans, and then reports the results as "Grams of Fuel
per batch of Pinto Beans." Or as Grams of Fuel per serving of
Pinto Beans.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">This is about as simple and elegant and
meaningful and repeatable and foolproof a test as one could
wish for. </font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">EVERY stove should be measured in some
manner for FUEL Utilization Efficiency. SOME stoves should
also be tested for ENERGY Efficiency. It adds un-necessary
cost to the Stove Testing Procedure, to require that ALL
stoves be tested for BOTH FUEL and ENERGY efficiency when only
SOME stoves need to be tested for ENERGY Efficiency.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">What would you think about the following
proposal for "stove testing rules"?</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">1: Stove Manufacturers shall state whether
their stove is a "full burning stove" or a "char producing
stove.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">2: "Full burning stoves" shall have a
"Fuel Efficiency Test."</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">3: "Char producing stoves" shall have BOTH
a "Fuel Efficiency Test", and an "Energy Efficiency Test."</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Does that sound practical, fair and
reasonable to you?</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Best wishes,</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Kevin</font></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT:
5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color:
black"><b>From:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="psanders@ilstu.edu" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">Paul
Anderson</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 24,
2013 1:13 PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Fw:
Shields E450c as a way to test char-making stoves(attn: GACC
testers)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Kevin and all,<br>
<br>
All stoves should be rated on ENERGY consumption as well as
FUEL consumption. That is not too much to expect. And
would alert the readers of the test reports to the difference
that char-production accomplishes in some stoves.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
On 10/24/2013 11:00 AM, Kevin wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:F9AB54ECEC764CF1BE1D1233C3191926@usera594fda0bf"
type="cite">
<meta name="GENERATOR" content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.23532">
<style></style>
<div> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
<div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><b>From:</b>
<a title="kchisholm-inter@uniserve.com"
href="mailto:kchisholm-inter@uniserve.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">Kevin</a> </div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 24, 2013 12:42 AM</div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Shields E450c as a way to
test char-making stoves(attn: GACC testers)</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><font face="Arial">
<div><font face="Arial">Dear Ron</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Do you believe that wood burning
stoves will be rated for fuel consumption, but that
"char making stoves" will be rated for </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">fuel consumption minus the energy
remaining in the char?</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Kevin</font></div>
</font></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid;
PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4;
font-color: black"><b>From:</b> <a
title="rongretlarson@comcast.net"
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">Ronal W. Larson</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a
title="crispinpigott@gmail.com"
href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">Crispin Pemberton-Pigott</a> ; <a
title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">Discussion of biomass</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday,
October 23, 2013 2:16 PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves]
Shields E450c as a way to test char-making stoves(attn:
GACC testers)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Crispin cc stoves</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> Fine.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ron</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div>On Oct 23, 2013, at 11:10 AM, <a
href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)"
data-blackberry-caret-color="#00a8df">
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH:
100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Dear Ron</div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH:
100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><br>
</div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH:
100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><br>
</div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH:
100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">We'll at least this time you
are not putting words in my mouth, you are just
misunderstanding what I write and as far as I see,
deliberately so. </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH:
100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><br>
</div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH:
100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">If you have no more questions
I will be happy to move on. </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH:
100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><br>
</div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH:
100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Regards </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH:
100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Crispin </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH:
100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><br>
</div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255);
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">>>Q10>>></div>
<table style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: white; BORDER-SPACING:
0px" width="100%">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)"
colspan="2">
<div style="BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: none;
PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE:
none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in;
FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma, 'BB Alpha Sans', 'Slate
Pro'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; BORDER-LEFT-STYLE:
none; BORDER-TOP: rgb(181,196,223) 1pt
solid; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"
id="_persistentHeader">
<div><b>From: </b>Ronal W. Larson</div>
<div><b>Sent: </b>Wednesday, October 23,
2013 12:47</div>
<div><b>To: </b>Crispin Pemberton-Pigott;
Discussion of biomass</div>
<div><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] Shields
E450c as a way to test char-making stoves
(attn:<br>
GACC testers)</div>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
<div id="_originalContent"><base href="x-msg://10535/">
<div>Crispin and list</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>#1. You have added only extraneous material re
naming, China, kilns. You did not at all address
the issue of treating char-making stoves fairly.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>#a. Same response. You did not address the
topic of differentiating between char-making
stoves. Apparently you are happy that your money
making stove in Indonesia will receive a report
that says nothing about the char produced?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>#b1 Same response. You have a typo "<span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR:
rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><i>for a that
stove</i>" </span>that precludes a
definitive answer since I don't know whether to
strike "a" or "the". I continue to believe that
the present approach being used by Jim reports
everything you ask for - and always has. The only
new material I know about I am delighted with -
the amount of char and the energy in the char is
specifically now provided. It was always there,
but hidden. Char-making stove people couldn't be
happier with this small change in reported
results.</div>
<div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><br>
</span></div>
<div>#b2 -i You write about the formula A/(B-C):
"... <span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE:
11pt"> </span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE:
11pt">it has been misleading people ever since
it was introduced"</span></div>
<div> I agree. - but for opposite reasons
than you. It undervalues the production of char.
I am willing to let it ride, since my preference
is also being shown.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> - ii You write: "<span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR:
rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><i> </i></span><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR:
rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><i>Char? Fine,
if it too can be burned as fuel. If it is not
usable, it is not fuel. Same as ash as far as
that stove is concerned." </i></span>I am
sorry that you don't see how unfair this statement
is to char-making stoves -- where people
(including you) can make money on the char -
whether used as fuel or put in the ground. You
are taking income away from the poorest with your
stance.</div>
<div> </div>
<div> - iii Your last sentences: <span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR:
rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><i>The WBT was
changed and that was the major point of Jim’s
recent webinar to which you posed a number of
questions and which he answered repeatedly. </i></span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </span>[RWL:
And I was happy with all the answers.]</div>
<div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><i>I am
again answering that same question. </i></span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </span><i
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR:
rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </i><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR:
rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </span>[RWL:
With answers different from Jim's]</div>
<div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><i>The
fuel consumption considers whether or not the
remaining fuel is fuel for that same stove. If
it is not, it shall be considered consumed.</i></span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </span><i
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR:
rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </i><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR:
rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </span>[RWL:
You are (I think) the only one saying this should
be the rule. Certainly no-one who thinks making
char in a stove is better economically and
environmentally - regardless of where it ends up.
Of course for climate reasons I want it to go in
the ground, but I started on this topic in the
early 1990s just to save trees. Char-making
stoves can do both, but since char-makig stoves
are more efficient and cleaner, char-using stoves
are on their way out.</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div vlink="purple" link="blue" lang="EN-CA">
<div style="page: WordSection1"
class="WordSection1">
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">End
of short story. Take it up with Jim if you
do not agree with this reality.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </span>[RWL:
I see no need to. I think Jim is handling
"reality" correctly and has already said so on this
list several times.]
<div>
<div vlink="purple" link="blue" lang="EN-CA">
<div style="page: WordSection1"
class="WordSection1">
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><br>
</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div>On Oct 22, 2013, at 5:56 PM, "Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott" <<a
href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="WIDOWS: 2; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none;
TEXT-INDENT: 0px; FONT: medium Helvetica;
WHITE-SPACE: normal; ORPHANS: 2;
LETTER-SPACING: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px" vlink="purple"
link="blue" lang="EN-CA">
<div style="page: WordSection1"
class="WordSection1">
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR:
rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Dear
Ron<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR:
rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
<div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125);
FONT-SIZE: 11pt">></span>Crispin
and stoves list (again ignored - why?)<o:p></o:p></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p></o:p></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="TEXT-INDENT: -18pt; MARGIN:
0mm 0mm 0pt 36pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times
New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span>1.<span
style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span>The
"game" I am playing is to ensure that
charcoal-making stoves are treated
fairly. Saying that existing char at
the end of a run has been "consumed" is
not fair.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="COLOR:
rgb(31,73,125)"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125);
FONT-SIZE: 11pt">How do you suggest we
term the fuel that enters a stove
once, each time the stove is operated
through a burning cycle? Should that
be the fuel consumed? The fuel needed
per cycle? The fuel use? The fuel
demand? Give it a name and let’s see
how it flies.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125);
FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125);
FONT-SIZE: 11pt">We are speaking of
course of raw biomass in this case.
Whatever biomass goes into a stove,
per cycle, drawn from the available
supply, and which needs to be drawn
again the next time, needs a name.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125);
FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125);
FONT-SIZE: 11pt">In the strict sense
of the word ‘consumed’ it has been
consumed as far as that stove is
concerned. In another sense, from an
outside perspective which can see
additional uses for that remainder,
whether it be ashes or char, it has
‘produced something’. No problem. One
can view it that way, but it will not
change the raw fuel demand for a new
cycle unless some of it is fuel to
that same stove. There is no other
practical way to communicate to people
the amount of fuel a stove requires to
be harvested and provided each day.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125);
FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125);
FONT-SIZE: 11pt">In China they have a
test that runs for a month. A stove is
installed and cooked upon each day for
a month. The amount of fuel it
consumes during that month is
calculated. Then they know what the
fuel consumption really is. If there
is a huge pile of char left
afterwards, they do not consider that
an ‘efficiency’. I can’t say I am
surprised.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125);
FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125);
FONT-SIZE: 11pt">If you are in the
char making business, you still have
to consider how many cubic metres of
trees are needed each day. That is the
raw fuel consumption of the char
making kiln. The char produced is not
a raw fuel efficiency, it is the
output efficiency of the char making
process. No problem.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125);
FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125);
FONT-SIZE: 11pt">We both owe a duty of
care to the people buying and
promoting stoves to correctly report
the amount of biomass that is needed
to fuel the stove per cycle or per day
or per month.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p></o:p></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt">2. Under a) - I repeat
my original claim - you have no test in
mind that will differentiate between
char-making stoves. If char is there,
it has not been "consumed".<o:p></o:p></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="COLOR:
rgb(31,73,125)"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125);
FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Well you can read the
above again if you like. If there is
char remaining<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>that
is not fuel for the stove from which
it came</i>, it comes from fuel
which the stove consumed. Word it as
you like. I thought you would be
asking for a report on the char
production efficiency with a rating on
the energy content per kg and the %
volatiles. That would make sense if
you wanted to sell it for income. I am
hoping to do exactly that in an area
of Indonesia where there are many
candle nut shells. It makes really
good charcoal fuel when burned in a
TLUD which people can sell for income.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125);
FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125);
FONT-SIZE: 11pt">When assessing the
fuel consumption of the TLUD that
makes that char, we will get the mass
of fuel consumed per cycle, the energy
content and rate it accordingly.
Another stove that burns the same fuel
and cooks the same amount and produces
no char will consume a lot less raw
material. All we are doing is
reporting how much the stove consume
per cycle.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125);
FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt">3. Under b) - The key
sentences are your final two: <i> </i><i><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125);
FONT-SIZE: 11pt">The direct cause is
that the more char produced, the
less fuel was claimed to have been
consumed, which is clearly untrue.
That is why the WBT was changed."
</span></i>If char exists, the
claim of less fuel is "clearly true",
not "<i>clearly untrue". <span
style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><o:p></o:p></span></i></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125);
FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125);
FONT-SIZE: 11pt">My claim is related
to the amount of raw biomass needed to
be put into the stove each time it is
used. Your claim is to view the char
remaining as fuel. This may or may not
be true for a particular stove. If
that char is fuel for a that stove,
then the char can be credited as
unburned fuel. The point is to tell
the prospective buyer what the raw
fuel consumption is.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125);
FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Further, the use of
the formula A/(B-C) goes back at least
to VITA days and is in there today. On
this main point under dispute, the WBT
was NOT changed (thank goodness). Or if
I am wrong, please give a cite.<o:p></o:p></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125);
FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125);
FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Yes it does go back
that far and it has been misleading
people ever since it was introduced.
It was written on the basis that the
desired measurement was<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>not</i><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>the
raw fuel consumed each cycle, but the
efficiency with which the heat was
developed in the fire and transferred
to the pot. That is why it was called
(in those tests) the ‘heat transfer
efficiency’. It isn’t really the heat
transfer efficiency, but it was given
that name. The heat transfer
efficiency is a useful number for
stove designers. When making changes
like pot to stove clearance the number
will change. But it is not and never
was the fuel consumption figure, even
for the fry fuel consumption, because
the consumption depends on what
happens to the fuel remaining. If it
is long sticks that can be burned
tomorrow, fine, it is unburned fuel.
Char? Fine, if it too can be burned as
fuel. If it is not usable, it is not
fuel. Same as ash as far as that stove
is concerned.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125);
FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125);
FONT-SIZE: 11pt">The WBT was changed
and that was the major point of Jim’s
recent webinar to which you posed a
number of questions and which he
answered repeatedly. I am again
answering that same question. The fuel
consumption considers whether or not
the remaining fuel is fuel for that
same stove. If it is not, it shall be
considered consumed.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125);
FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125);
FONT-SIZE: 11pt">End of short story.
Take it up with Jim if you do not
agree with this reality.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125);
FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125);
FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Regards<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125);
FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Crispin<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<p style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt" class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125);
FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<!--end of _originalContent --></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<hr> _______________________________________________<br>
Stoves mailing list<br>
<br>
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see
our web site:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p> </p>
<hr> _______________________________________________<br>
Stoves mailing list<br>
<br>
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our
web site:<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>