<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Paul and "stoves":<div><br></div><div> I would add that it is very important also that all stoves (not just char-making stoves) be rated on their production of char. The rating should be in kilos, percentages and energy terms. I guess (not sure) that "fuel" means kg and its %; energy means joules and its %. Fortunately these are all being given now by EPA and (I think) GACC. Some wish to call anything related to char as non-existent (consumed) - which makes no sense to me. I am not changing your response to Kevin - only making sure that the emphasis in this discussion be on the words "char-production" in your last sentence. </div><div><br></div><div> Until we have a better alternative to the words "<i style="font-family: Arial; "> minus the energy remaining in the char" - </i><span style="font-family: Arial; ">we are stuck with it - although that approach undervalues the char.</span></div><div><br></div><div> This is the same answer I give to Kevin who wrote earlier today, with his and my emphasis on the word "minus":</div><div><br></div><div><div><font face="Arial"><i><div><font face="Arial">Dear Ron</font></div><div> </div><div><font face="Arial">Do you believe that wood burning stoves will be rated for fuel consumption, but that "char making stoves" will be rated for</font></div><div><font face="Arial">fuel consumption minus the energy remaining in the char?</font></div><div><font face="Arial"></font> </div><div><font face="Arial">Kevin</font></div></i></font></div><blockquote style="border-left-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 5px; padding-right: 0px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px; "></blockquote></div><div><br><div><div>On Oct 24, 2013, at 10:13 AM, Paul Anderson <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Kevin and all,<br>
<br>
All stoves should be rated on ENERGY consumption as well as FUEL
consumption. That is not too much to expect. And would alert
the readers of the test reports to the difference that
char-production accomplishes in some stoves.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com/">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
On 10/24/2013 11:00 AM, Kevin wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:F9AB54ECEC764CF1BE1D1233C3191926@usera594fda0bf" type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
<meta name="GENERATOR" content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.23532">
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<div> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
<div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><b>From:</b>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" title="kchisholm-inter@uniserve.com" href="mailto:kchisholm-inter@uniserve.com">Kevin</a> </div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 24, 2013 12:42 AM</div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Shields E450c as a way to test
char-making stoves(attn: GACC testers)</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><font face="Arial">
<div><font face="Arial">Dear Ron</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Do you believe that wood burning
stoves will be rated for fuel consumption, but that "char
making stoves" will be rated for </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">fuel consumption minus the energy
remaining in the char?</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Kevin</font></div>
</font></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT:
5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color:
black"><b>From:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" title="rongretlarson@comcast.net" href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">Ronal W. Larson</a>
</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" title="crispinpigott@gmail.com" href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com">Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott</a> ; <a moz-do-not-send="true" title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of
biomass</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, October
23, 2013 2:16 PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves]
Shields E450c as a way to test char-making stoves(attn: GACC
testers)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Crispin cc stoves</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> Fine.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ron</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div>On Oct 23, 2013, at 11:10 AM, <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)" data-blackberry-caret-color="#00a8df">
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH:
100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Dear Ron</div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH:
100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><br>
</div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH:
100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><br>
</div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH:
100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">We'll at least this time you are
not putting words in my mouth, you are just
misunderstanding what I write and as far as I see,
deliberately so. </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH:
100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><br>
</div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH:
100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">If you have no more questions I
will be happy to move on. </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH:
100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><br>
</div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH:
100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Regards </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH:
100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Crispin </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH:
100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><br>
</div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255);
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR:
rgb(31,73,125)">>>Q10>>></div>
<table style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: white; BORDER-SPACING:
0px" width="100%">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)" colspan="2">
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Pro'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; BORDER-LEFT-STYLE: none;
BORDER-TOP: rgb(181,196,223) 1pt solid;
PADDING-TOP: 3pt" id="_persistentHeader">
<div><b>From: </b>Ronal W. Larson</div>
<div><b>Sent: </b>Wednesday, October 23, 2013
12:47</div>
<div><b>To: </b>Crispin Pemberton-Pigott;
Discussion of biomass</div>
<div><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] Shields E450c
as a way to test char-making stoves (attn:<br>
GACC testers)</div>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
<div id="_originalContent"><base href="x-msg://10535/">
<div>Crispin and list</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>#1. You have added only extraneous material re
naming, China, kilns. You did not at all address the
issue of treating char-making stoves fairly.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>#a. Same response. You did not address the topic
of differentiating between char-making stoves.
Apparently you are happy that your money making stove
in Indonesia will receive a report that says nothing
about the char produced?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>#b1 Same response. You have a typo "<span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR:
rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><i>for a that stove</i>"
</span>that precludes a definitive answer since I
don't know whether to strike "a" or "the". I continue
to believe that the present approach being used by Jim
reports everything you ask for - and always has. The
only new material I know about I am delighted with -
the amount of char and the energy in the char is
specifically now provided. It was always there, but
hidden. Char-making stove people couldn't be happier
with this small change in reported results.</div>
<div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><br>
</span></div>
<div>#b2 -i You write about the formula A/(B-C):
"... <span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR:
rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">it has been
misleading people ever since it was introduced"</span></div>
<div> I agree. - but for opposite reasons than
you. It undervalues the production of char. I am
willing to let it ride, since my preference is also
being shown.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> - ii You write: "<span style="FONT-FAMILY:
Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125);
FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><i> </i></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR:
rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><i>Char? Fine, if
it too can be burned as fuel. If it is not usable,
it is not fuel. Same as ash as far as that stove
is concerned." </i></span>I am sorry that you
don't see how unfair this statement is to char-making
stoves -- where people (including you) can make money
on the char - whether used as fuel or put in the
ground. You are taking income away from the poorest
with your stance.</div>
<div> </div>
<div> - iii Your last sentences: <span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR:
rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><i>The WBT was
changed and that was the major point of Jim’s
recent webinar to which you posed a number of
questions and which he answered repeatedly. </i></span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </span>[RWL:
And I was happy with all the answers.]</div>
<div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><i>I am
again answering that same question. </i></span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </span><i style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR:
rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </i><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR:
rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </span>[RWL:
With answers different from Jim's]</div>
<div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><i>The fuel
consumption considers whether or not the remaining
fuel is fuel for that same stove. If it is not, it
shall be considered consumed.</i></span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </span><i style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR:
rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </i><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR:
rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </span>[RWL: You
are (I think) the only one saying this should be the
rule. Certainly no-one who thinks making char in a
stove is better economically and environmentally -
regardless of where it ends up. Of course for climate
reasons I want it to go in the ground, but I started
on this topic in the early 1990s just to save trees.
Char-making stoves can do both, but since char-makig
stoves are more efficient and cleaner, char-using
stoves are on their way out.</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-CA">
<div style="page: WordSection1" class="WordSection1">
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">End of
short story. Take it up with Jim if you do not
agree with this reality.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </span>[RWL:
I see no need to. I think Jim is handling "reality"
correctly and has already said so on this list several
times.]
<div>
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-CA">
<div style="page: WordSection1" class="WordSection1">
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><br>
</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div>On Oct 22, 2013, at 5:56 PM, "Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott" <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="WIDOWS: 2; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none;
TEXT-INDENT: 0px; FONT: medium Helvetica;
WHITE-SPACE: normal; ORPHANS: 2; LETTER-SPACING:
normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px" link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-CA">
<div style="page: WordSection1" class="WordSection1">
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Dear
Ron<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
<div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">></span>Crispin
and stoves list (again ignored - why?)<o:p></o:p></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p></o:p></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="TEXT-INDENT: -18pt; MARGIN: 0mm
0mm 0pt 36pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New
Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span>1.<span style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span>The
"game" I am playing is to ensure that
charcoal-making stoves are treated fairly.
Saying that existing char at the end of a
run has been "consumed" is not fair.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">How
do you suggest we term the fuel that
enters a stove once, each time the stove
is operated through a burning cycle?
Should that be the fuel consumed? The fuel
needed per cycle? The fuel use? The fuel
demand? Give it a name and let’s see how
it flies.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">We
are speaking of course of raw biomass in
this case. Whatever biomass goes into a
stove, per cycle, drawn from the available
supply, and which needs to be drawn again
the next time, needs a name.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">In
the strict sense of the word ‘consumed’ it
has been consumed as far as that stove is
concerned. In another sense, from an
outside perspective which can see
additional uses for that remainder,
whether it be ashes or char, it has
‘produced something’. No problem. One can
view it that way, but it will not change
the raw fuel demand for a new cycle unless
some of it is fuel to that same stove.
There is no other practical way to
communicate to people the amount of fuel a
stove requires to be harvested and
provided each day.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">In
China they have a test that runs for a
month. A stove is installed and cooked
upon each day for a month. The amount of
fuel it consumes during that month is
calculated. Then they know what the fuel
consumption really is. If there is a huge
pile of char left afterwards, they do not
consider that an ‘efficiency’. I can’t say
I am surprised.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">If
you are in the char making business, you
still have to consider how many cubic
metres of trees are needed each day. That
is the raw fuel consumption of the char
making kiln. The char produced is not a
raw fuel efficiency, it is the output
efficiency of the char making process. No
problem.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">We
both owe a duty of care to the people
buying and promoting stoves to correctly
report the amount of biomass that is
needed to fuel the stove per cycle or per
day or per month.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p></o:p></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">2.
Under a) - I repeat my original claim - you
have no test in mind that will differentiate
between char-making stoves. If char is
there, it has not been "consumed".<o:p></o:p></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Well
you can read the above again if you like.
If there is char remaining<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>that
is not fuel for the stove from which it
came</i>, it comes from fuel which the
stove consumed. Word it as you like. I
thought you would be asking for a report
on the char production efficiency with a
rating on the energy content per kg and
the % volatiles. That would make sense if
you wanted to sell it for income. I am
hoping to do exactly that in an area of
Indonesia where there are many candle nut
shells. It makes really good charcoal fuel
when burned in a TLUD which people can
sell for income.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">When
assessing the fuel consumption of the TLUD
that makes that char, we will get the mass
of fuel consumed per cycle, the energy
content and rate it accordingly. Another
stove that burns the same fuel and cooks
the same amount and produces no char will
consume a lot less raw material. All we
are doing is reporting how much the stove
consume per cycle.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">3.
Under b) - The key sentences are your
final two: <i> </i><i><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">The
direct cause is that the more char
produced, the less fuel was claimed to
have been consumed, which is clearly
untrue. That is why the WBT was
changed." </span></i>If char
exists, the claim of less fuel is "clearly
true", not "<i>clearly untrue". <span style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><o:p></o:p></span></i></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">My
claim is related to the amount of raw
biomass needed to be put into the stove
each time it is used. Your claim is to
view the char remaining as fuel. This may
or may not be true for a particular stove.
If that char is fuel for a that stove,
then the char can be credited as unburned
fuel. The point is to tell the prospective
buyer what the raw fuel consumption is.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Further,
the use of the formula A/(B-C) goes back at
least to VITA days and is in there today.
On this main point under dispute, the WBT
was NOT changed (thank goodness). Or if I
am wrong, please give a cite.<o:p></o:p></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Yes
it does go back that far and it has been
misleading people ever since it was
introduced. It was written on the basis
that the desired measurement was<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>not</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>the
raw fuel consumed each cycle, but the
efficiency with which the heat was
developed in the fire and transferred to
the pot. That is why it was called (in
those tests) the ‘heat transfer
efficiency’. It isn’t really the heat
transfer efficiency, but it was given that
name. The heat transfer efficiency is a
useful number for stove designers. When
making changes like pot to stove clearance
the number will change. But it is not and
never was the fuel consumption figure,
even for the fry fuel consumption, because
the consumption depends on what happens to
the fuel remaining. If it is long sticks
that can be burned tomorrow, fine, it is
unburned fuel. Char? Fine, if it too can
be burned as fuel. If it is not usable, it
is not fuel. Same as ash as far as that
stove is concerned.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">The
WBT was changed and that was the major
point of Jim’s recent webinar to which you
posed a number of questions and which he
answered repeatedly. I am again answering
that same question. The fuel consumption
considers whether or not the remaining
fuel is fuel for that same stove. If it is
not, it shall be considered consumed.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">End
of short story. Take it up with Jim if you
do not agree with this reality.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Regards<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Crispin<o:p></o:p></span></div><p style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt" class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR:
rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
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_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org<br><br>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/<br><br></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>