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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Kevin and all,<br>
      <br>
      All stoves should be rated on ENERGY consumption as well as FUEL
      consumption.    That is not too much to expect.   And would alert
      the readers of the test reports to the difference that
      char-production accomplishes in some stoves.<br>
      <br>
      Paul<br>
      <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD  
Email:  <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>   
Skype: paultlud      Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website:  <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
      On 10/24/2013 11:00 AM, Kevin wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:F9AB54ECEC764CF1BE1D1233C3191926@usera594fda0bf"
      type="cite">
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      <div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
        <div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><b>From:</b>
          <a moz-do-not-send="true" title="kchisholm-inter@uniserve.com"
            href="mailto:kchisholm-inter@uniserve.com">Kevin</a> </div>
        <div><b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
            title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
            href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of
            biomass cooking stoves</a> </div>
        <div><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 24, 2013 12:42 AM</div>
        <div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Shields E450c as a way to test
          char-making stoves(attn: GACC testers)</div>
      </div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div><font face="Arial">
          <div><font face="Arial">Dear Ron</font></div>
          <div> </div>
          <div><font face="Arial">Do you believe that wood burning
              stoves will be rated for fuel consumption, but that "char
              making stoves" will be rated for </font></div>
          <div><font face="Arial">fuel consumption minus the energy
              remaining in the char?</font></div>
          <div> </div>
          <div><font face="Arial">Kevin</font></div>
        </font></div>
      <blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT:
        5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
        <div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
        <div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color:
          black"><b>From:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
            title="rongretlarson@comcast.net"
            href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">Ronal W. Larson</a>
        </div>
        <div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a
            moz-do-not-send="true" title="crispinpigott@gmail.com"
            href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com">Crispin
            Pemberton-Pigott</a> ; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
            title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
            href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of
            biomass</a> </div>
        <div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, October
          23, 2013 2:16 PM</div>
        <div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves]
          Shields E450c as a way to test char-making stoves(attn: GACC
          testers)</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Crispin  cc stoves</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>    Fine.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Ron</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <br>
        <div>
          <div>On Oct 23, 2013, at 11:10 AM, <a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a>
            wrote:</div>
          <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)"
              data-blackberry-caret-color="#00a8df">
              <div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH:
                100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif;
                COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Dear Ron</div>
              <div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH:
                100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif;
                COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><br>
              </div>
              <div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH:
                100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif;
                COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><br>
              </div>
              <div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH:
                100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif;
                COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">We'll at least this time you are
                not putting words in my mouth, you are just
                misunderstanding what I write and as far as I see,
                deliberately so. </div>
              <div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH:
                100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif;
                COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><br>
              </div>
              <div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH:
                100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif;
                COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">If you have no more questions I
                will be happy to move on. </div>
              <div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH:
                100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif;
                COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><br>
              </div>
              <div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH:
                100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif;
                COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Regards </div>
              <div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH:
                100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif;
                COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Crispin </div>
              <div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH:
                100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif;
                COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><br>
              </div>
              <div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255);
                FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR:
                rgb(31,73,125)">>>Q10>>></div>
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                        PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE: none;
                        PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in;
                        FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma, 'BB Alpha Sans', 'Slate
                        Pro'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; BORDER-LEFT-STYLE: none;
                        BORDER-TOP: rgb(181,196,223) 1pt solid;
                        PADDING-TOP: 3pt" id="_persistentHeader">
                        <div><b>From: </b>Ronal W. Larson</div>
                        <div><b>Sent: </b>Wednesday, October 23, 2013
                          12:47</div>
                        <div><b>To: </b>Crispin Pemberton-Pigott;
                          Discussion of biomass</div>
                        <div><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] Shields E450c
                          as a way to test char-making stoves (attn:<br>
                          GACC testers)</div>
                      </div>
                    </td>
                  </tr>
                </tbody>
              </table>
              <br>
              <div id="_originalContent"><base href="x-msg://10535/">
                <div>Crispin and list</div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>#1.  You have added only extraneous material re
                  naming, China, kilns.  You did not at all address the
                  issue of treating char-making stoves fairly.</div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>#a.  Same response.  You did not address the topic
                  of differentiating between char-making stoves.
                   Apparently you are happy that your money making stove
                  in Indonesia will receive a report that says nothing
                  about the char produced?</div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>#b1   Same response.  You have a typo "<span
                    style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR:
                    rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><i>for a that stove</i>"
                      </span>that precludes a definitive answer since I
                  don't know whether to strike "a" or "the".  I continue
                  to believe that the present approach being used by Jim
                  reports everything you ask for - and always has.  The
                  only new material I know about I am delighted with -
                  the amount of char and the energy in the char is
                  specifically now provided.  It was always there, but
                  hidden.  Char-making stove people couldn't be happier
                  with this small change in reported results.</div>
                <div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                    COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><br>
                  </span></div>
                <div>#b2 -i   You write about the formula A/(B-C):
                   "... <span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                    COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </span><span
                    style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR:
                    rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">it has been
                    misleading people ever since it was introduced"</span></div>
                <div>       I agree.  - but for opposite reasons than
                  you.  It undervalues the production of char.   I am
                  willing to let it ride, since my preference is also
                  being shown.</div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>   - ii    You write:   "<span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                    Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125);
                    FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><i> </i></span><span
                    style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR:
                    rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><i>Char? Fine, if
                      it too can be burned as fuel. If it is not usable,
                      it is not fuel. Same as ash as far as that stove
                      is concerned."   </i></span>I  am sorry that you
                  don't see how unfair this statement is to char-making
                  stoves -- where people (including you) can make money
                  on the char - whether used as fuel or put in the
                  ground.   You are taking income away from the poorest
                  with your stance.</div>
                <div>   </div>
                <div>  - iii   Your last sentences:  <span
                    style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR:
                    rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><i>The WBT was
                      changed and that was the major point of Jim’s
                      recent webinar to which you posed a number of
                      questions and which he answered repeatedly. </i></span></div>
                <div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                    COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">   </span>[RWL:
                   And I was happy with all the answers.]</div>
                <div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                    COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><br>
                  </span></div>
                <div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                    COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><i>I am
                      again answering that same question. </i></span></div>
                <div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                    COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">   </span><i
                    style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR:
                    rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </i><span
                    style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR:
                    rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">  </span>[RWL:
                   With answers different from Jim's]</div>
                <div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                    COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><br>
                  </span></div>
                <div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                    COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><i>The fuel
                      consumption considers whether or not the remaining
                      fuel is fuel for that same stove. If it is not, it
                      shall be considered consumed.</i></span></div>
                <div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                    COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">    </span><i
                    style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR:
                    rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </i><span
                    style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR:
                    rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </span>[RWL:   You
                  are (I think) the only one saying this should be the
                  rule.  Certainly no-one who thinks making char in a
                  stove is better economically and environmentally -
                  regardless of where it ends up.  Of course for climate
                  reasons I want it to go in the ground,  but I started
                  on this topic in the early 1990s just to save trees.
                   Char-making stoves can do both, but since char-makig
                  stoves are more efficient and cleaner, char-using
                  stoves are on their way out.</div>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-CA">
                    <div style="page: WordSection1" class="WordSection1">
                      <div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
                        'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
                          style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                          COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
                      <div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
                        'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
                          style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                          COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">End of
                          short story. Take it up with Jim if you do not
                          agree with this reality.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                    <span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                  COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </span>[RWL:
                 I see no need to.  I think Jim is handling "reality"
                correctly and has already said so on this list several
                times.]
                <div>
                  <div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-CA">
                    <div style="page: WordSection1" class="WordSection1">
                      <div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
                        'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
                          style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                          COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><br>
                        </span></div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <br>
                <div>
                  <div>On Oct 22, 2013, at 5:56 PM, "Crispin
                    Pemberton-Pigott" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a>>
                    wrote:</div>
                  <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <div style="WIDOWS: 2; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none;
                      TEXT-INDENT: 0px; FONT: medium Helvetica;
                      WHITE-SPACE: normal; ORPHANS: 2; LETTER-SPACING:
                      normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px;
                      -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
                      -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px" link="blue"
                      vlink="purple" lang="EN-CA">
                      <div style="page: WordSection1"
                        class="WordSection1">
                        <div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
                          'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
                            style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                            COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Dear
                            Ron<o:p></o:p></span></div>
                        <div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
                          'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
                            style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                            COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
                        <div>
                          <div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
                              style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                              COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">></span>Crispin
                            and stoves list  (again ignored - why?)<o:p></o:p></div>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p></o:p></div>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <div style="TEXT-INDENT: -18pt; MARGIN: 0mm
                            0mm 0pt 36pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New
                            Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span>1.<span
                                style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'">     <span
                                  class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span>The
                            "game"  I am playing is to ensure that
                            charcoal-making stoves are treated fairly.
                             Saying that existing char at the end of a
                            run has been "consumed" is not fair.<o:p></o:p></div>
                          <div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
                              style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></span> </div>
                          <div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
                              style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                              COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">How
                              do you suggest we term the fuel that
                              enters a stove once, each time the stove
                              is operated through a burning cycle?
                              Should that be the fuel consumed? The fuel
                              needed per cycle? The fuel use? The fuel
                              demand? Give it a name and let’s see how
                              it flies.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
                          <div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
                              style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                              COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
                          <div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
                              style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                              COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">We
                              are speaking of course of raw biomass in
                              this case. Whatever biomass goes into a
                              stove, per cycle, drawn from the available
                              supply, and which needs to be drawn again
                              the next time, needs a name.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
                          <div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
                              style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                              COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
                          <div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
                              style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                              COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">In
                              the strict sense of the word ‘consumed’ it
                              has been consumed as far as that stove is
                              concerned. In another sense, from an
                              outside perspective which can see
                              additional uses for that remainder,
                              whether it be ashes or char, it has
                              ‘produced something’. No problem. One can
                              view it that way, but it will not change
                              the raw fuel demand for a new cycle unless
                              some of it is fuel to that same stove.
                              There is no other practical way to
                              communicate to people the amount of fuel a
                              stove requires to be harvested and
                              provided each day.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
                          <div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
                              style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                              COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
                          <div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
                              style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                              COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">In
                              China they have a test that runs for a
                              month. A stove is installed and cooked
                              upon each day for a month. The amount of
                              fuel it consumes during that month is
                              calculated. Then they know what the fuel
                              consumption really is. If there is a huge
                              pile of char left afterwards, they do not
                              consider that an ‘efficiency’. I can’t say
                              I am surprised.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
                          <div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
                              style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                              COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
                          <div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
                              style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                              COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">If
                              you are in the char making business, you
                              still have to consider how many cubic
                              metres of trees are needed each day. That
                              is the raw fuel consumption of the char
                              making kiln. The char produced is not a
                              raw fuel efficiency, it is the output
                              efficiency of the char making process. No
                              problem.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
                          <div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
                              style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                              COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
                          <div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
                              style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                              COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">We
                              both owe a duty of care to the people
                              buying and promoting stoves to correctly
                              report the amount of biomass that is
                              needed to fuel the stove per cycle or per
                              day or per month.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p></o:p></div>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">2.
                             Under a) - I repeat my original claim - you
                            have no test in mind that will differentiate
                            between char-making stoves.   If char is
                            there, it has not been "consumed".<o:p></o:p></div>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
                              style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></span> </div>
                          <div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
                              style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                              COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Well
                              you can read the above again if you like.
                              If there is char remaining<span
                                class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>that
                                is not fuel for the stove from which it
                                came</i>, it comes from fuel which the
                              stove consumed. Word it as you like. I
                              thought you would be asking for a report
                              on the char production efficiency with a
                              rating on the energy content per kg and
                              the % volatiles. That would make sense if
                              you wanted to sell it for income. I am
                              hoping to do exactly that in an area of
                              Indonesia where there are many candle nut
                              shells. It makes really good charcoal fuel
                              when burned in a TLUD which people can
                              sell for income.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
                          <div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
                              style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                              COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
                          <div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
                              style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                              COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">When
                              assessing the fuel consumption of the TLUD
                              that makes that char, we will get the mass
                              of fuel consumed per cycle, the energy
                              content and rate it accordingly. Another
                              stove that burns the same fuel and cooks
                              the same amount and produces no char will
                              consume a lot less raw material. All we
                              are doing is reporting how much the stove
                              consume per cycle.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
                          <div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
                              style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                              COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">3.
                             Under b) -  The key sentences are your
                            final two:  <i> </i><i><span
                                style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                                COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">The
                                direct cause is that the more char
                                produced, the less fuel was claimed to
                                have been consumed, which is clearly
                                untrue. That is why the WBT was
                                changed."       </span></i>If char
                            exists, the claim of less fuel is "clearly
                            true",  not "<i>clearly untrue".  <span
                                style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><o:p></o:p></span></i></div>
                          <div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
                              style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                              COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
                          <div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
                              style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                              COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">My
                              claim is related to the amount of raw
                              biomass needed to be put into the stove
                              each time it is used. Your claim is to
                              view the char remaining as fuel. This may
                              or may not be true for a particular stove.
                              If that char is fuel for a that stove,
                              then the char can be credited as unburned
                              fuel. The point is to tell the prospective
                              buyer what the raw fuel consumption is.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
                          <div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
                              style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                              COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
                          <div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Further,
                             the use of the formula A/(B-C) goes back at
                            least to VITA days and is in there today.  
                            On this main point under dispute, the WBT
                            was NOT changed (thank goodness).  Or if I
                            am wrong, please give a cite.<o:p></o:p></div>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
                              style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                              COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
                          <div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
                              style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                              COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Yes
                              it does go back that far and it has been
                              misleading people ever since it was
                              introduced.  It was written on the basis
                              that the desired measurement was<span
                                class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>not</i><span
                                class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>the
                              raw fuel consumed each cycle, but the
                              efficiency with which the heat was
                              developed in the fire and transferred to
                              the pot. That is why it was called (in
                              those tests) the ‘heat transfer
                              efficiency’.  It isn’t really the heat
                              transfer efficiency, but it was given that
                              name. The heat transfer efficiency is a
                              useful number for stove designers. When
                              making changes like pot to stove clearance
                              the number will change. But it is not and
                              never was the fuel consumption figure,
                              even for the fry fuel consumption, because
                              the consumption depends on what happens to
                              the fuel remaining. If it is long sticks
                              that can be burned tomorrow, fine, it is
                              unburned fuel. Char? Fine, if it too can
                              be burned as fuel. If it is not usable, it
                              is not fuel. Same as ash as far as that
                              stove is concerned.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
                          <div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
                              style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                              COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
                          <div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
                              style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                              COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">The
                              WBT was changed and that was the major
                              point of Jim’s recent webinar to which you
                              posed a number of questions and which he
                              answered repeatedly. I am again answering
                              that same question. The fuel consumption
                              considers whether or not the remaining
                              fuel is fuel for that same stove. If it is
                              not, it shall be considered consumed.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
                          <div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
                              style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                              COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
                          <div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
                              style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                              COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">End
                              of short story. Take it up with Jim if you
                              do not agree with this reality.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
                          <div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
                              style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                              COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
                          <div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
                              style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                              COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Regards<o:p></o:p></span></div>
                          <div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span
                              style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif;
                              COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Crispin<o:p></o:p></span></div>
                          <p style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY:
                            'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
                            class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
                              Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR:
                              rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span></p>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                </div>
                <br>
                <br>
                <!--end of _originalContent --></div>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br>
        <p> </p>
        <hr> _______________________________________________<br>
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        <br>
        for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our
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        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
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</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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