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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear Paul</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=psanders@ilstu.edu href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">Paul Anderson</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 24, 2013 5:47
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] Fw: Shields E450c
as a way to test char-making stoves(attn: GACC testers)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>Kevin,<BR><BR>When ALL of the fuel is consumed,
then the fuel usage has a known energy usage. No need to do
additional calculations.</DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix> </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial># EXACTLY!! This would be the case
for a "Full Combustion Stove." The testing is very much simplified because
there is no residual char, or partially charred wood, with an uncertain energy
content.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix> </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial># Virtually all "bone dry wood"
has an energy content of 8,600 BTU/Lb, or 20 mJ/kG. It is a simple matter with
a spread sheet, knowing the initial moisture content of the wood, to calculate
the energy contained in the fuel supplied. It is a very different
matter calculate the efficiency for a "Char Making Stove". </FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix> </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial># Case A: Char is recovered from
the ash, and is recycled to the fuel bin. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial>With 3 or 4 runs, to confirm that
there is no build-up or drawdown of char, then the "Average Fuel Efficiency"
can be readily calculated. Such a test would be more expensive than a "Full
Combustion Stove" because of need for repetition of test work.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix> </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial># Case B: The Stove produces char,
which is burned in another stove, or is retained for use as biochar.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial>In this case, the energy content
of the char is a dead loss from the fuel. It contributes nothing to reducing
fuel consumption. Such char is referred to as "Ash pit carbon loss." The
same test procedure that was used for a "Full Combustion Stove" would be
appropriate here. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix> </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial># Case C: The stove produces char
which is burned in another stove, or is used as biochar, but it is desired to
know teh energy content of the char produced.</FONT> <FONT face=Arial>In
this case, the stove would be tested as a "Full Combustion Stove", as in Case
B, but additionally, the recovered char would be tested to determine its
energy content. Given that the testing to determine the energy content in the
char</FONT> <FONT face=Arial>is not necessary to determine the true Fuel
Efficiency of the stove, it is neither fair nor necesary to burden
stoves that are intended to be "Full Combustion Stoves" with a test that
is helpful only to those with an interest in char making
stoves. </FONT> <BR><BR>And as Crispin and others have pointed out,
efficiency is measured in energy units, not in kg of wood or liters of liquid
fuels. </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix> </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial># Clearly, it is impossible to
measure "fuel transferred from the stove to the pot." However, one can measure
the energy transferred to the pot, and it is a simple matter to compare
(energy in pot) / (energy in fuel supplied), to get a figure for "Fuel
Utilization Efficiency." Efficiency is not measured in Energy Units.
Efficiency is the ratio of:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial> Es = (Fuel Eenrgy Used
Productively) / Fuel Energy Supplied)</FONT> </DIV><FONT
face=Arial></FONT>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><BR>Simply report efficiencies in terms of both
fuel usage and energy usage for all stoves. </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix> </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial># A "Full Combustion Stove"
requires less costly testing than a "Char Producing Stove" It is not necesary,
fair, or sensible to require ALL stoves to bear the costs of the extra testing
for determining the fuel energy loss to the char, for a char making
stove.</FONT></DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial>What would you think about the
following proposal for "stove testing rules"?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial>1: Stove Manufacturers shall state
whether their stove is a "full burning stove" or a "char producing
stove.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial>2: "Full burning stoves" shall
have a "Fuel Efficiency Test."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial>3: "Char producing stoves" shall
have BOTH a "Fuel Efficiency Test", and an "Energy Efficiency
Test."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix> </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><FONT face=Arial>Does that sound practical, fair
and reasonable to you?</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
face=Arial>Kevin</FONT>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><BR><BR>Paul <BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><PRE class=moz-signature cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</A>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</A></PRE></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>On 10/24/2013 12:20 PM, Kevin wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:EAEEB3F99EC5458CAC64437847A24821@usera594fda0bf
type="cite">
<META name=GENERATOR content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.23532">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear Paul</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>People do not buy, or collect, or prepare ENERGY for a
stove... they buy, or collect, or prepare FUEL</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>The input to a stove is FUEL, not ENERGY</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Lanny Henson has a very simple "Efficiency Test"... he
weighs his fuel beforehand, cooks up a batch of Pinto Beans, and then
reports the results as "Grams of Fuel per batch of Pinto Beans." Or as Grams
of Fuel per serving of Pinto Beans.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>This is about as simple and elegant and meaningful and
repeatable and foolproof a test as one could wish for. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>EVERY stove should be measured in some manner for FUEL
Utilization Efficiency. SOME stoves should also be tested for ENERGY
Efficiency. It adds un-necessary cost to the Stove Testing Procedure, to
require that ALL stoves be tested for BOTH FUEL and ENERGY efficiency when
only SOME stoves need to be tested for ENERGY Efficiency.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>What would you think about the following proposal for
"stove testing rules"?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>1: Stove Manufacturers shall state whether their stove
is a "full burning stove" or a "char producing stove.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>2: "Full burning stoves" shall have a "Fuel Efficiency
Test."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>3: "Char producing stoves" shall have BOTH a "Fuel
Efficiency Test", and an "Energy Efficiency Test."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Does that sound practical, fair and reasonable to
you?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Best wishes,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Kevin</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=psanders@ilstu.edu href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu"
moz-do-not-send="true">Paul Anderson</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">Discussion of biomass cooking stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 24, 2013 1:13
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] Fw: Shields
E450c as a way to test char-making stoves(attn: GACC testers)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>Kevin and all,<BR><BR>All stoves should be
rated on ENERGY consumption as well as FUEL consumption.
That is not too much to expect. And would alert the readers of
the test reports to the difference that char-production accomplishes in
some stoves.<BR><BR>Paul<BR><PRE class=moz-signature cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" moz-do-not-send="true">psanders@ilstu.edu</A>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="http://www.drtlud.com" moz-do-not-send="true">www.drtlud.com</A></PRE>On
10/24/2013 11:00 AM, Kevin wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:F9AB54ECEC764CF1BE1D1233C3191926@usera594fda0bf
type="cite">
<META name=GENERATOR content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.23532">
<STYLE></STYLE>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A
title=kchisholm-inter@uniserve.com
href="mailto:kchisholm-inter@uniserve.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">Kevin</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">Discussion of biomass cooking stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 24, 2013 12:42 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] Shields E450c as a way to test
char-making stoves(attn: GACC testers)</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear Ron</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Do you believe that wood burning stoves will be
rated for fuel consumption, but that "char making stoves" will be rated
for </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>fuel consumption minus the energy remaining in the
char?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Kevin</FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rongretlarson@comcast.net
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" moz-do-not-send="true">Ronal
W. Larson</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=crispinpigott@gmail.com href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">Crispin Pemberton-Pigott</A> ; <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">Discussion of biomass</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 23, 2013
2:16 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] Shields
E450c as a way to test char-making stoves(attn: GACC testers)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Crispin cc stoves</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV> Fine.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Ron</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Oct 23, 2013, at 11:10 AM, <A
href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">crispinpigott@gmail.com</A> wrote:</DIV><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)"
data-blackberry-caret-color="#00a8df">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Dear
Ron</DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">We'll
at least this time you are not putting words in my mouth, you are
just misunderstanding what I write and as far as I see, deliberately
so. </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">If
you have no more questions I will be happy to move on. </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Regards </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Crispin
</DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">>>Q10>>></DIV>
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width="100%">
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id=_persistentHeader>
<DIV><B>From: </B>Ronal W. Larson</DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent: </B>Wednesday, October 23, 2013 12:47</DIV>
<DIV><B>To: </B>Crispin Pemberton-Pigott; Discussion of
biomass</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject: </B>Re: [Stoves] Shields E450c as a way to
test char-making stoves (attn:<BR>GACC
testers)</DIV></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR>
<DIV id=_originalContent><BASE href="x-msg://10535/">
<DIV>Crispin and list</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>#1. You have added only extraneous material re naming,
China, kilns. You did not at all address the issue of treating
char-making stoves fairly.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>#a. Same response. You did not address the topic of
differentiating between char-making stoves. Apparently you are
happy that your money making stove in Indonesia will receive a
report that says nothing about the char produced?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>#b1 Same response. You have a typo "<SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><I>for
a that stove</I>" </SPAN>that precludes a definitive
answer since I don't know whether to strike "a" or "the". I
continue to believe that the present approach being used by Jim
reports everything you ask for - and always has. The only new
material I know about I am delighted with - the amount of char and
the energy in the char is specifically now provided. It was
always there, but hidden. Char-making stove people couldn't be
happier with this small change in reported results.</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>#b2 -i You write about the formula A/(B-C):
"... <SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">it
has been misleading people ever since it was
introduced"</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> I agree. - but for opposite
reasons than you. It undervalues the production of char.
I am willing to let it ride, since my preference is also
being shown.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV> - ii You write: "<SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><I> </I></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><I>Char?
Fine, if it too can be burned as fuel. If it is not usable, it is
not fuel. Same as ash as far as that stove is concerned."
</I></SPAN>I am sorry that you don't see how
unfair this statement is to char-making stoves -- where people
(including you) can make money on the char - whether used as fuel or
put in the ground. You are taking income away from the
poorest with your stance.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> - iii Your last sentences: <SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><I>The
WBT was changed and that was the major point of Jim’s recent webinar
to which you posed a number of questions and which he answered
repeatedly. </I></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">
</SPAN>[RWL: And I was happy with all the
answers.]</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><I>I
am again answering that same question. </I></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">
</SPAN><I
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </SPAN>[RWL:
With answers different from Jim's]</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><I>The
fuel consumption considers whether or not the remaining fuel is fuel
for that same stove. If it is not, it shall be considered
consumed.</I></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">
</SPAN><I
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </SPAN>[RWL:
You are (I think) the only one saying this should be the
rule. Certainly no-one who thinks making char in a stove is
better economically and environmentally - regardless of where it
ends up. Of course for climate reasons I want it to go in the
ground, but I started on this topic in the early 1990s just to
save trees. Char-making stoves can do both, but since
char-makig stoves are more efficient and cleaner, char-using stoves
are on their way out.</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV lang=EN-CA link="blue" vlink="purple">
<DIV style="page: WordSection1" class=WordSection1>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">End
of short story. Take it up with Jim if you do not agree with this
reality.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </SPAN>[RWL:
I see no need to. I think Jim is handling "reality"
correctly and has already said so on this list several times.]
<DIV>
<DIV lang=EN-CA link="blue" vlink="purple">
<DIV style="page: WordSection1" class=WordSection1>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR></SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Oct 22, 2013, at 5:56 PM, "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <<A
href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">crispinpigott@gmail.com</A>>
wrote:</DIV><BR class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV
style="WIDOWS: 2; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; FONT: medium Helvetica; WHITE-SPACE: normal; ORPHANS: 2; LETTER-SPACING: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"
lang=EN-CA link="blue" vlink="purple">
<DIV style="page: WordSection1" class=WordSection1>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Dear
Ron<O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">></SPAN>Crispin
and stoves list (again ignored -
why?)<O:P></O:P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><O:P></O:P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="TEXT-INDENT: -18pt; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt 36pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times
New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN>1.<SPAN
style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN>The "game"
I am playing is to ensure that charcoal-making stoves are
treated fairly. Saying that existing char at the end of a
run has been "consumed" is not fair.<O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">How
do you suggest we term the fuel that enters a stove once, each
time the stove is operated through a burning cycle? Should that be
the fuel consumed? The fuel needed per cycle? The fuel use? The
fuel demand? Give it a name and let’s see how it
flies.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">We
are speaking of course of raw biomass in this case. Whatever
biomass goes into a stove, per cycle, drawn from the available
supply, and which needs to be drawn again the next time, needs a
name.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">In
the strict sense of the word ‘consumed’ it has been consumed as
far as that stove is concerned. In another sense, from an outside
perspective which can see additional uses for that remainder,
whether it be ashes or char, it has ‘produced something’. No
problem. One can view it that way, but it will not change the raw
fuel demand for a new cycle unless some of it is fuel to that same
stove. There is no other practical way to communicate to people
the amount of fuel a stove requires to be harvested and provided
each day.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">In
China they have a test that runs for a month. A stove is installed
and cooked upon each day for a month. The amount of fuel it
consumes during that month is calculated. Then they know what the
fuel consumption really is. If there is a huge pile of char left
afterwards, they do not consider that an ‘efficiency’. I can’t say
I am surprised.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">If
you are in the char making business, you still have to consider
how many cubic metres of trees are needed each day. That is the
raw fuel consumption of the char making kiln. The char produced is
not a raw fuel efficiency, it is the output efficiency of the char
making process. No problem.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">We
both owe a duty of care to the people buying and promoting stoves
to correctly report the amount of biomass that is needed to fuel
the stove per cycle or per day or per
month.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><O:P></O:P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">2.
Under a) - I repeat my original claim - you have no test in
mind that will differentiate between char-making stoves. If
char is there, it has not been "consumed".<O:P></O:P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Well
you can read the above again if you like. If there is char
remaining<SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><I>that is
not fuel for the stove from which it came</I>, it comes from fuel
which the stove consumed. Word it as you like. I thought you would
be asking for a report on the char production efficiency with a
rating on the energy content per kg and the % volatiles. That
would make sense if you wanted to sell it for income. I am hoping
to do exactly that in an area of Indonesia where there are many
candle nut shells. It makes really good charcoal fuel when burned
in a TLUD which people can sell for
income.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">When
assessing the fuel consumption of the TLUD that makes that char,
we will get the mass of fuel consumed per cycle, the energy
content and rate it accordingly. Another stove that burns the same
fuel and cooks the same amount and produces no char will consume a
lot less raw material. All we are doing is reporting how much the
stove consume per cycle.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">3.
Under b) - The key sentences are your final two:
<I> </I><I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">The
direct cause is that the more char produced, the less fuel was
claimed to have been consumed, which is clearly untrue. That is
why the WBT was changed." </SPAN></I>If
char exists, the claim of less fuel is "clearly true", not
"<I>clearly untrue". <SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></I></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">My
claim is related to the amount of raw biomass needed to be put
into the stove each time it is used. Your claim is to view the
char remaining as fuel. This may or may not be true for a
particular stove. If that char is fuel for a that stove, then the
char can be credited as unburned fuel. The point is to tell the
prospective buyer what the raw fuel consumption
is.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Further,
the use of the formula A/(B-C) goes back at least to VITA
days and is in there today. On this main point under
dispute, the WBT was NOT changed (thank goodness). Or if I
am wrong, please give a cite.<O:P></O:P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Yes
it does go back that far and it has been misleading people ever
since it was introduced. It was written on the basis that
the desired measurement was<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><I>not</I><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>the raw fuel consumed
each cycle, but the efficiency with which the heat was developed
in the fire and transferred to the pot. That is why it was called
(in those tests) the ‘heat transfer efficiency’. It isn’t
really the heat transfer efficiency, but it was given that name.
The heat transfer efficiency is a useful number for stove
designers. When making changes like pot to stove clearance the
number will change. But it is not and never was the fuel
consumption figure, even for the fry fuel consumption, because the
consumption depends on what happens to the fuel remaining. If it
is long sticks that can be burned tomorrow, fine, it is unburned
fuel. Char? Fine, if it too can be burned as fuel. If it is not
usable, it is not fuel. Same as ash as far as that stove is
concerned.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">The
WBT was changed and that was the major point of Jim’s recent
webinar to which you posed a number of questions and which he
answered repeatedly. I am again answering that same question. The
fuel consumption considers whether or not the remaining fuel is
fuel for that same stove. If it is not, it shall be considered
consumed.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">End
of short story. Take it up with Jim if you do not agree with this
reality.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Regards<O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Crispin<O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<P
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,
sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR><!--end of _originalContent --></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR>
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