<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META name=GENERATOR content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.23532"></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff text=#000000>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear Paul</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>People do not buy, or collect, or prepare ENERGY for a
stove... they buy, or collect, or prepare FUEL</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>The input to a stove is FUEL, not ENERGY</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Lanny Henson has a very simple "Efficiency Test"... he
weighs his fuel beforehand, cooks up a batch of Pinto Beans, and then reports
the results as "Grams of Fuel per batch of Pinto Beans." Or as Grams of Fuel per
serving of Pinto Beans.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>This is about as simple and elegant and meaningful and
repeatable and foolproof a test as one could wish for. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>EVERY stove should be measured in some manner for FUEL
Utilization Efficiency. SOME stoves should also be tested for ENERGY Efficiency.
It adds un-necessary cost to the Stove Testing Procedure, to require that ALL
stoves be tested for BOTH FUEL and ENERGY efficiency when only SOME stoves need
to be tested for ENERGY Efficiency.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>What would you think about the following proposal for
"stove testing rules"?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>1: Stove Manufacturers shall state whether their stove is
a "full burning stove" or a "char producing stove.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>2: "Full burning stoves" shall have a "Fuel Efficiency
Test."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>3: "Char producing stoves" shall have BOTH a "Fuel
Efficiency Test", and an "Energy Efficiency Test."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Does that sound practical, fair and reasonable to
you?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Best wishes,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Kevin</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=psanders@ilstu.edu href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">Paul Anderson</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 24, 2013 1:13
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] Fw: Shields E450c
as a way to test char-making stoves(attn: GACC testers)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>Kevin and all,<BR><BR>All stoves should be rated on
ENERGY consumption as well as FUEL consumption. That is not
too much to expect. And would alert the readers of the test
reports to the difference that char-production accomplishes in some
stoves.<BR><BR>Paul<BR><PRE class=moz-signature cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</A>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</A></PRE>On
10/24/2013 11:00 AM, Kevin wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:F9AB54ECEC764CF1BE1D1233C3191926@usera594fda0bf
type="cite">
<META name=GENERATOR content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.23532">
<STYLE></STYLE>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A
title=kchisholm-inter@uniserve.com
href="mailto:kchisholm-inter@uniserve.com" moz-do-not-send="true">Kevin</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">Discussion of biomass cooking stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 24, 2013 12:42 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] Shields E450c as a way to test char-making
stoves(attn: GACC testers)</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear Ron</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Do you believe that wood burning stoves will be rated
for fuel consumption, but that "char making stoves" will be rated for
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>fuel consumption minus the energy remaining in the
char?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Kevin</FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rongretlarson@comcast.net href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">Ronal W. Larson</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=crispinpigott@gmail.com
href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true">Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott</A> ; <A title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">Discussion of biomass</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 23, 2013
2:16 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] Shields E450c
as a way to test char-making stoves(attn: GACC testers)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Crispin cc stoves</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV> Fine.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Ron</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Oct 23, 2013, at 11:10 AM, <A
href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">crispinpigott@gmail.com</A> wrote:</DIV><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)"
data-blackberry-caret-color="#00a8df">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Dear
Ron</DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">We'll
at least this time you are not putting words in my mouth, you are just
misunderstanding what I write and as far as I see, deliberately
so. </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">If
you have no more questions I will be happy to move on. </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Regards </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Crispin
</DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">>>Q10>>></DIV>
<TABLE style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: white; BORDER-SPACING: 0px"
width="100%">
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)" colSpan=2>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE: none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma, 'BB Alpha Sans', 'Slate
Pro'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; BORDER-LEFT-STYLE: none; BORDER-TOP: rgb(181,196,223) 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"
id=_persistentHeader>
<DIV><B>From: </B>Ronal W. Larson</DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent: </B>Wednesday, October 23, 2013 12:47</DIV>
<DIV><B>To: </B>Crispin Pemberton-Pigott; Discussion of
biomass</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject: </B>Re: [Stoves] Shields E450c as a way to test
char-making stoves (attn:<BR>GACC
testers)</DIV></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR>
<DIV id=_originalContent><BASE href="x-msg://10535/">
<DIV>Crispin and list</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>#1. You have added only extraneous material re naming, China,
kilns. You did not at all address the issue of treating
char-making stoves fairly.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>#a. Same response. You did not address the topic of
differentiating between char-making stoves. Apparently you are
happy that your money making stove in Indonesia will receive a report
that says nothing about the char produced?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>#b1 Same response. You have a typo "<SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><I>for
a that stove</I>" </SPAN>that precludes a definitive answer
since I don't know whether to strike "a" or "the". I continue to
believe that the present approach being used by Jim reports everything
you ask for - and always has. The only new material I know about I
am delighted with - the amount of char and the energy in the char is
specifically now provided. It was always there, but hidden.
Char-making stove people couldn't be happier with this small
change in reported results.</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>#b2 -i You write about the formula A/(B-C):
"... <SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">it
has been misleading people ever since it was introduced"</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> I agree. - but for opposite
reasons than you. It undervalues the production of char. I
am willing to let it ride, since my preference is also being
shown.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV> - ii You write: "<SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><I> </I></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><I>Char?
Fine, if it too can be burned as fuel. If it is not usable, it is not
fuel. Same as ash as far as that stove is concerned."
</I></SPAN>I am sorry that you don't see how
unfair this statement is to char-making stoves -- where people
(including you) can make money on the char - whether used as fuel or put
in the ground. You are taking income away from the poorest with
your stance.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> - iii Your last sentences: <SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><I>The
WBT was changed and that was the major point of Jim’s recent webinar to
which you posed a number of questions and which he answered
repeatedly. </I></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">
</SPAN>[RWL: And I was happy with all the answers.]</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><I>I
am again answering that same question. </I></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">
</SPAN><I
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </SPAN>[RWL:
With answers different from Jim's]</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><I>The
fuel consumption considers whether or not the remaining fuel is fuel for
that same stove. If it is not, it shall be considered
consumed.</I></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">
</SPAN><I
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </SPAN>[RWL:
You are (I think) the only one saying this should be the rule.
Certainly no-one who thinks making char in a stove is better
economically and environmentally - regardless of where it ends up.
Of course for climate reasons I want it to go in the ground,
but I started on this topic in the early 1990s just to save trees.
Char-making stoves can do both, but since char-makig stoves are
more efficient and cleaner, char-using stoves are on their way
out.</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV lang=EN-CA vlink="purple" link="blue">
<DIV style="page: WordSection1" class=WordSection1>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">End
of short story. Take it up with Jim if you do not agree with this
reality.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </SPAN>[RWL:
I see no need to. I think Jim is handling "reality"
correctly and has already said so on this list several times.]
<DIV>
<DIV lang=EN-CA vlink="purple" link="blue">
<DIV style="page: WordSection1" class=WordSection1>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR></SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Oct 22, 2013, at 5:56 PM, "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <<A
href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">crispinpigott@gmail.com</A>> wrote:</DIV><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV
style="WIDOWS: 2; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; FONT: medium Helvetica; WHITE-SPACE: normal; ORPHANS: 2; LETTER-SPACING: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"
lang=EN-CA vlink="purple" link="blue">
<DIV style="page: WordSection1" class=WordSection1>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Dear
Ron<O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">></SPAN>Crispin
and stoves list (again ignored - why?)<O:P></O:P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><O:P></O:P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="TEXT-INDENT: -18pt; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt 36pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New
Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN>1.<SPAN
style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN>The "game"
I am playing is to ensure that charcoal-making stoves are
treated fairly. Saying that existing char at the end of a run
has been "consumed" is not fair.<O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">How
do you suggest we term the fuel that enters a stove once, each time
the stove is operated through a burning cycle? Should that be the fuel
consumed? The fuel needed per cycle? The fuel use? The fuel demand?
Give it a name and let’s see how it flies.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">We
are speaking of course of raw biomass in this case. Whatever biomass
goes into a stove, per cycle, drawn from the available supply, and
which needs to be drawn again the next time, needs a
name.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">In
the strict sense of the word ‘consumed’ it has been consumed as far as
that stove is concerned. In another sense, from an outside perspective
which can see additional uses for that remainder, whether it be ashes
or char, it has ‘produced something’. No problem. One can view it that
way, but it will not change the raw fuel demand for a new cycle unless
some of it is fuel to that same stove. There is no other practical way
to communicate to people the amount of fuel a stove requires to be
harvested and provided each day.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">In
China they have a test that runs for a month. A stove is installed and
cooked upon each day for a month. The amount of fuel it consumes
during that month is calculated. Then they know what the fuel
consumption really is. If there is a huge pile of char left
afterwards, they do not consider that an ‘efficiency’. I can’t say I
am surprised.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">If
you are in the char making business, you still have to consider how
many cubic metres of trees are needed each day. That is the raw fuel
consumption of the char making kiln. The char produced is not a raw
fuel efficiency, it is the output efficiency of the char making
process. No problem.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">We
both owe a duty of care to the people buying and promoting stoves to
correctly report the amount of biomass that is needed to fuel the
stove per cycle or per day or per month.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><O:P></O:P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">2.
Under a) - I repeat my original claim - you have no test in mind
that will differentiate between char-making stoves. If char is
there, it has not been "consumed".<O:P></O:P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Well
you can read the above again if you like. If there is char
remaining<SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><I>that is not
fuel for the stove from which it came</I>, it comes from fuel which
the stove consumed. Word it as you like. I thought you would be asking
for a report on the char production efficiency with a rating on the
energy content per kg and the % volatiles. That would make sense if
you wanted to sell it for income. I am hoping to do exactly that in an
area of Indonesia where there are many candle nut shells. It makes
really good charcoal fuel when burned in a TLUD which people can sell
for income.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">When
assessing the fuel consumption of the TLUD that makes that char, we
will get the mass of fuel consumed per cycle, the energy content and
rate it accordingly. Another stove that burns the same fuel and cooks
the same amount and produces no char will consume a lot less raw
material. All we are doing is reporting how much the stove consume per
cycle.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">3.
Under b) - The key sentences are your final two:
<I> </I><I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">The
direct cause is that the more char produced, the less fuel was claimed
to have been consumed, which is clearly untrue. That is why the WBT
was changed." </SPAN></I>If char exists, the
claim of less fuel is "clearly true", not "<I>clearly untrue".
<SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></I></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">My
claim is related to the amount of raw biomass needed to be put into
the stove each time it is used. Your claim is to view the char
remaining as fuel. This may or may not be true for a particular stove.
If that char is fuel for a that stove, then the char can be credited
as unburned fuel. The point is to tell the prospective buyer what the
raw fuel consumption is.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Further,
the use of the formula A/(B-C) goes back at least to VITA days
and is in there today. On this main point under dispute, the
WBT was NOT changed (thank goodness). Or if I am wrong, please
give a cite.<O:P></O:P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Yes
it does go back that far and it has been misleading people ever since
it was introduced. It was written on the basis that the desired
measurement was<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><I>not</I><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>the raw fuel consumed each
cycle, but the efficiency with which the heat was developed in the
fire and transferred to the pot. That is why it was called (in those
tests) the ‘heat transfer efficiency’. It isn’t really the heat
transfer efficiency, but it was given that name. The heat transfer
efficiency is a useful number for stove designers. When making changes
like pot to stove clearance the number will change. But it is not and
never was the fuel consumption figure, even for the fry fuel
consumption, because the consumption depends on what happens to the
fuel remaining. If it is long sticks that can be burned tomorrow,
fine, it is unburned fuel. Char? Fine, if it too can be burned as
fuel. If it is not usable, it is not fuel. Same as ash as far as that
stove is concerned.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">The
WBT was changed and that was the major point of Jim’s recent webinar
to which you posed a number of questions and which he answered
repeatedly. I am again answering that same question. The fuel
consumption considers whether or not the remaining fuel is fuel for
that same stove. If it is not, it shall be considered
consumed.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">End
of short story. Take it up with Jim if you do not agree with this
reality.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Regards<O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Crispin<O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<P
style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR><!--end of _originalContent --></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR>
<P></P>
<HR>
_______________________________________________<BR>Stoves mailing
list<BR><BR>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<BR><A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR><BR>to
UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<BR><A
class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR><BR>for
more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
site:<BR><A class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</A><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<FIELDSET class=mimeAttachmentHeader></FIELDSET> <BR><PRE wrap="">_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
<A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</A>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</A>
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>Stoves mailing
list<BR><BR>to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<BR>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<BR><BR>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change
your List Settings use the web
page<BR>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org<BR><BR>for
more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
site:<BR>http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>