<HTML xmlns:o><HEAD>
<META content="text/html charset=windows-1252" http-equiv=Content-Type></HEAD>
<BODY
style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space"
dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000">
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt"><SPAN
lang=EN-US><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Dear Paul A, Ron, Crispin and
Kevin.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt"><SPAN
lang=EN-US><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I just wonder how the horizontal 2
blaze PP TLUD- ND will be evaluated by the WBT system and the tests of efficient
and good cooking stoves.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt"><SPAN
lang=EN-US><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">The combustion system I am working with
consists of small energy units with pellets as fuel to be put into the actual
stove, which can be of any purpose and any size for cooking, frying, wok,
grilling, griddling, baking bread and heating. To be used for household,
institutional kitchen, small scale industries, refugee camps and emergency
situations.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt"><SPAN
lang=EN-US><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">The units will be produced in two
sizes; one for household cooking with 500 gr of pellets and one bigger for
institutional cooking and heating for 1500 gr pellets.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>With two 500 gr units boiling 5 liter of
water within 36 minutes; then removing one unit when water is boiling, simmering
the 5 liter for 40 minutes on one, and cook on the other for another 40 minutes.
<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>With 360 gr pellets baking a1 ˝ kg
bread or grilling 1 ˝ kg chicken and boiling rice. By end of flame there will
about 25% biochar and by end of the cooking process there will be about 20 %
biochar.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt"><SPAN
lang=EN-US><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Simmering and temperature of flame is
important factors by the cooking process and has to be involved in the tests of
what is a good efficient stove.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt"><SPAN
lang=EN-US><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">With regards Paal W</FONT></SPAN></P>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none; DISPLAY: inline">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=rongretlarson@comcast.net
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">Ronal W. Larson</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Friday, October 25, 2013 5:53 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=kchisholm@ca.inter.net
href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">Kevin</A> ; <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] Shields E450c as a way totest char-making
stoves(attn:GACC testers)</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none; DISPLAY: inline">
<DIV>Kevin and list</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> There are many reasons for one test procedure rather than
two:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> All stoves can produce char. It
depends on when and how you stop their operation.</DIV>
<DIV> I have participated in a lot of stove
testing - and users have always saved their char. Char has value, no
matter how little is made.</DIV>
<DIV> If there is zero char, then there is no
extra cost.</DIV>
<DIV> You will not be able to compare between
tests using the present protocol unless you know the amount of char
produced.</DIV>
<DIV> There are decades of tests with char
production records. You will lose the ability to compare progress if you
stop measuring char.</DIV>
<DIV> Some char-making stoves are more efficient
(less annual input material) than many that have no intended production.
You need the charcoal amount to show that.</DIV>
<DIV> Many experts have Ok'd the existing
tests. Changing the procedures will cost time and money.</DIV>
<DIV> Every stove manufacturer should want the
charcoal included - including char makes the efficiency numbers look
better (not as good it could/should, but better).</DIV>
<DIV> Those arguing for a change have given no
good reason for that change other than saving a small dollar amount. </DIV>
<DIV> Much present stove testing is free to the
manufacturer - and they will/should learn a lot from knowing how much energy is
in the char - if they desire to get rid of it.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>There are probably more; this list is not intended to be exhaustive.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Ron</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Oct 24, 2013, at 6:55 PM, Kevin <<A
href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</A>>
wrote:</DIV><BR class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<META name=GENERATOR content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.23532">
<DIV
style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space"
bgcolor="#ffffff">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear Ron</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rongretlarson@comcast.net
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">Ronal W. Larson</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 24, 2013 6:28
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] Shields E450c as
a way totest char-making stoves(attn: GACC testers)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>Paul and "stoves":
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> I would add that it is very important also that all
stoves (not just char-making stoves) be rated on their production of
char.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial># Why do you feel that ALL stoves should be forced to
pay for the extra expense of the testing associated with the determination
of the energy loss to the char? It is reasonable to require that stoves
intended to produce char be tested for their char producing capability, but
it does not make sense to require "Full Combustion Stoves" to be tested for
char.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> The rating should be in kilos, percentages and energy
terms. I guess (not sure) that "fuel" means kg and its %; energy
means joules and its %. Fortunately these are all being given now by
EPA and (I think) GACC. Some wish to call anything related to char as
non-existent (consumed) - which makes no sense to me. I am
not changing your response to Kevin - only making sure that the emphasis in
this discussion be on the words "char-production" in your last
sentence. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> Until we have a better alternative to
the words "<I style="FONT-FAMILY: arial"> minus the energy remaining in the
char" - </I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: arial">we are stuck with it - although
that approach undervalues the char.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> This is the same answer I give to Kevin who wrote earlier
today, with his and my emphasis on the word "minus":</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial># It seems to me that there are two fundamentally
different "Stove Systems":</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>1: Those that are of a design intended to minimize the
requirement for fuel input</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>and</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>2: Those that are of a design intended to produce
char, for other desirable purposes.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial># It thus follows that there should be two test
procedures to enable comparison of stoves within each class. Inherently a
"Full Combustion Stove" will have less fuel consumption than a stove that
inherently loses a significant portion of teh fuel energy as char.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial># If the "Class 1 Stoves were tested for "Fuel
Efficiency", and teh "Class 2" stoves were tested for both fuel efficiency
and the fuel energy remaining in the char, then stoves in each class could
be rated on their intended performance. Additionally, however, the fuel
efficiency of both classes could be compared, so that a Stove Buyer would
know how much more fuel he would have to purchase for a heating/cooking
task, and also, how much residual char he could expect. It strikes me as
pointless and unfair to require a Class 1 Stove manufacturer to do a char
test, when his stove is producing little or no char.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Best wishes,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Kevin</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><I>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear Ron</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Do you believe that wood burning stoves will be rated
for fuel consumption, but that "char making stoves" will be rated
for</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>fuel consumption minus the energy remaining in the
char?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Kevin</FONT></DIV></I></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Oct 24, 2013, at 10:13 AM, Paul Anderson <<A
href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</A>> wrote:</DIV><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>Kevin and all,<BR><BR>All stoves should be
rated on ENERGY consumption as well as FUEL consumption.
That is not too much to expect. And would alert the readers of
the test reports to the difference that char-production accomplishes in
some stoves.<BR><BR>Paul<BR><PRE class=moz-signature cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</A>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="http://www.drtlud.com/">www.drtlud.com</A></PRE>On
10/24/2013 11:00 AM, Kevin wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:F9AB54ECEC764CF1BE1D1233C3191926@usera594fda0bf
type="cite">
<META name=GENERATOR content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.23532">
<STYLE></STYLE>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A
title=kchisholm-inter@uniserve.com
href="mailto:kchisholm-inter@uniserve.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">Kevin</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">Discussion of biomass cooking stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 24, 2013 12:42 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] Shields E450c as a way to test
char-making stoves(attn: GACC testers)</DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear Ron</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Do you believe that wood burning stoves will be
rated for fuel consumption, but that "char making stoves" will be rated
for </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>fuel consumption minus the energy remaining in the
char?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Kevin</FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rongretlarson@comcast.net
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" moz-do-not-send="true">Ronal
W. Larson</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=crispinpigott@gmail.com href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">Crispin Pemberton-Pigott</A> ; <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">Discussion of biomass</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 23, 2013
2:16 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] Shields
E450c as a way to test char-making stoves(attn: GACC testers)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Crispin cc stoves</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> Fine.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Ron</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Oct 23, 2013, at 11:10 AM, <A
href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">crispinpigott@gmail.com</A> wrote:</DIV><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)"
data-blackberry-caret-color="#00a8df">
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); WIDTH: 100%; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)">Dear
Ron</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); WIDTH: 100%; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)"></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); WIDTH: 100%; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)"></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); WIDTH: 100%; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)">We'll
at least this time you are not putting words in my mouth, you are
just misunderstanding what I write and as far as I see, deliberately
so. </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); WIDTH: 100%; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)"></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); WIDTH: 100%; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)">If
you have no more questions I will be happy to move on. </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); WIDTH: 100%; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)"></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); WIDTH: 100%; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)">Regards
</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); WIDTH: 100%; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)">Crispin
</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); WIDTH: 100%; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)"></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)">>>Q10>>></DIV>
<TABLE
style="COLOR: #000000; BORDER-SPACING: 0px; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white"
width="100%">
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)" colSpan=2>
<DIV id=_persistentHeader
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; BORDER-LEFT-STYLE: none; BORDER-TOP: rgb(181,196,223) 1pt solid; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, 'BB Alpha Sans', 'Slate
pro'; BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE: none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in">
<DIV><B>From: </B>Ronal W. Larson</DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent: </B>Wednesday, October 23, 2013 12:47</DIV>
<DIV><B>To: </B>Crispin Pemberton-Pigott; Discussion of
biomass</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject: </B>Re: [Stoves] Shields E450c as a way to
test char-making stoves (attn:<BR>GACC
testers)</DIV></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR>
<DIV id=_originalContent><BASE href="x-msg://10535/">
<DIV>Crispin and list</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>#1. You have added only extraneous material re naming,
China, kilns. You did not at all address the issue of treating
char-making stoves fairly.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>#a. Same response. You did not address the topic of
differentiating between char-making stoves. Apparently you are
happy that your money making stove in Indonesia will receive a
report that says nothing about the char produced?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>#b1 Same response. You have a typo "<SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><I>for
a that stove</I>" </SPAN>that precludes a definitive
answer since I don't know whether to strike "a" or "the". I
continue to believe that the present approach being used by Jim
reports everything you ask for - and always has. The only new
material I know about I am delighted with - the amount of char and
the energy in the char is specifically now provided. It was
always there, but hidden. Char-making stove people couldn't be
happier with this small change in reported results.</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>#b2 -i You write about the formula A/(B-C):
"... <SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">it
has been misleading people ever since it was
introduced"</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> I agree. - but for
opposite reasons than you. It undervalues the production of
char. I am willing to let it ride, since my preference
is also being shown.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> - ii You write:
"<SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><I> </I></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><I>Char?
Fine, if it too can be burned as fuel. If it is not usable, it is
not fuel. Same as ash as far as that stove is
concerned." </I></SPAN>I am sorry that you don't
see how unfair this statement is to char-making stoves -- where
people (including you) can make money on the char - whether used as
fuel or put in the ground. You are taking income away
from the poorest with your stance.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> - iii Your last sentences: <SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><I>The
WBT was changed and that was the major point of Jim’s recent webinar
to which you posed a number of questions and which he answered
repeatedly. </I></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">
</SPAN>[RWL: And I was happy with all the answers.]</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><I>I
am again answering that same question. </I></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">
</SPAN><I
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"> </I><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">
</SPAN>[RWL: With answers different from Jim's]</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><I>The
fuel consumption considers whether or not the remaining fuel is fuel
for that same stove. If it is not, it shall be considered
consumed.</I></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">
</SPAN><I
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"> </I><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"> </SPAN>[RWL:
You are (I think) the only one saying this should be the rule.
Certainly no-one who thinks making char in a stove is better
economically and environmentally - regardless of where it ends
up. Of course for climate reasons I want it to go in the
ground, but I started on this topic in the early 1990s just to
save trees. Char-making stoves can do both, but since
char-makig stoves are more efficient and cleaner, char-using stoves
are on their way out.</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV lang=EN-CA link="blue" vlink="purple">
<DIV class=WordSection1 style="page: wordsection1">
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">End
of short story. Take it up with Jim if you do not agree with this
reality.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"> </SPAN>[RWL:
I see no need to. I think Jim is handling "reality" correctly
and has already said so on this list several times.]
<DIV>
<DIV lang=EN-CA link="blue" vlink="purple">
<DIV class=WordSection1 style="page: wordsection1">
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><BR></SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Oct 22, 2013, at 5:56 PM, "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <<A
href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">crispinpigott@gmail.com</A>>
wrote:</DIV><BR class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV lang=EN-CA
style="WHITE-SPACE: normal; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: medium helvetica; ORPHANS: 2; WIDOWS: 2; LETTER-SPACING: normal; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"
link="blue" vlink="purple">
<DIV class=WordSection1 style="page: wordsection1">
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Dear
Ron<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">></SPAN>Crispin
and stoves list (again ignored -
why?)<o:p></o:p></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt"><o:p></o:p></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New
roman', serif; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt 36pt; TEXT-INDENT: -18pt"><SPAN>1.<SPAN
style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN>The
"game" I am playing is to ensure that charcoal-making stoves
are treated fairly. Saying that existing char at the end of
a run has been "consumed" is not fair.<o:p></o:p></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt"><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">How
do you suggest we term the fuel that enters a stove once, each
time the stove is operated through a burning cycle? Should that be
the fuel consumed? The fuel needed per cycle? The fuel use? The
fuel demand? Give it a name and let’s see how it
flies.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">We
are speaking of course of raw biomass in this case. Whatever
biomass goes into a stove, per cycle, drawn from the available
supply, and which needs to be drawn again the next time, needs a
name.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">In
the strict sense of the word ‘consumed’ it has been consumed as
far as that stove is concerned. In another sense, from an outside
perspective which can see additional uses for that remainder,
whether it be ashes or char, it has ‘produced something’. No
problem. One can view it that way, but it will not change the raw
fuel demand for a new cycle unless some of it is fuel to that same
stove. There is no other practical way to communicate to people
the amount of fuel a stove requires to be harvested and provided
each day.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">In
China they have a test that runs for a month. A stove is installed
and cooked upon each day for a month. The amount of fuel it
consumes during that month is calculated. Then they know what the
fuel consumption really is. If there is a huge pile of char left
afterwards, they do not consider that an ‘efficiency’. I can’t say
I am surprised.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">If
you are in the char making business, you still have to consider
how many cubic metres of trees are needed each day. That is the
raw fuel consumption of the char making kiln. The char produced is
not a raw fuel efficiency, it is the output efficiency of the char
making process. No problem.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">We
both owe a duty of care to the people buying and promoting stoves
to correctly report the amount of biomass that is needed to fuel
the stove per cycle or per day or per
month.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt"><o:p></o:p></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt">2.
Under a) - I repeat my original claim - you have no test in mind
that will differentiate between char-making stoves. If
char is there, it has not been "consumed".<o:p></o:p></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt"><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Well
you can read the above again if you like. If there is char
remaining<SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><I>that is
not fuel for the stove from which it came</I>, it comes from fuel
which the stove consumed. Word it as you like. I thought you would
be asking for a report on the char production efficiency with a
rating on the energy content per kg and the % volatiles. That
would make sense if you wanted to sell it for income. I am hoping
to do exactly that in an area of Indonesia where there are many
candle nut shells. It makes really good charcoal fuel when burned
in a TLUD which people can sell for
income.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">When
assessing the fuel consumption of the TLUD that makes that char,
we will get the mass of fuel consumed per cycle, the energy
content and rate it accordingly. Another stove that burns the same
fuel and cooks the same amount and produces no char will consume a
lot less raw material. All we are doing is reporting how much the
stove consume per cycle.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></SPAN> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt">3.
Under b) - The key sentences are your final two:
<I> </I><I><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">The
direct cause is that the more char produced, the less fuel was
claimed to have been consumed, which is clearly untrue. That is
why the WBT was changed."
</SPAN></I>If char exists, the claim of less fuel is "clearly
true", not "<I>clearly untrue". <SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></I></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">My
claim is related to the amount of raw biomass needed to be put
into the stove each time it is used. Your claim is to view the
char remaining as fuel. This may or may not be true for a
particular stove. If that char is fuel for a that stove, then the
char can be credited as unburned fuel. The point is to tell the
prospective buyer what the raw fuel consumption
is.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt">Further,
the use of the formula A/(B-C) goes back at least to VITA days and
is in there today. On this main point under dispute,
the WBT was NOT changed (thank goodness). Or if I am wrong,
please give a cite.<o:p></o:p></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Yes
it does go back that far and it has been misleading people ever
since it was introduced. It was written on the basis that
the desired measurement was<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><I>not</I><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>the raw fuel consumed
each cycle, but the efficiency with which the heat was developed
in the fire and transferred to the pot. That is why it was called
(in those tests) the ‘heat transfer efficiency’. It isn’t
really the heat transfer efficiency, but it was given that name.
The heat transfer efficiency is a useful number for stove
designers. When making changes like pot to stove clearance the
number will change. But it is not and never was the fuel
consumption figure, even for the fry fuel consumption, because the
consumption depends on what happens to the fuel remaining. If it
is long sticks that can be burned tomorrow, fine, it is unburned
fuel. Char? Fine, if it too can be burned as fuel. If it is not
usable, it is not fuel. Same as ash as far as that stove is
concerned.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">The
WBT was changed and that was the major point of Jim’s recent
webinar to which you posed a number of questions and which he
answered repeatedly. I am again answering that same question. The
fuel consumption considers whether or not the remaining fuel is
fuel for that same stove. If it is not, it shall be considered
consumed.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">End
of short story. Take it up with Jim if you do not agree with this
reality.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Regards<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Crispin<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR><!--end of _originalContent --></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<HR>
_______________________________________________<BR>Stoves mailing
list<BR><BR>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<BR><A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR><BR>to
UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<BR><A
class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR><BR>for
more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
site:<BR><A class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</A><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<FIELDSET class=mimeAttachmentHeader></FIELDSET> <BR><PRE wrap="">_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
<A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</A>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</A>
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>Stoves
mailing list<BR><BR>to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<BR><A
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR><BR>to
UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<BR><A
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR><BR>for
more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
site:<BR>http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<HR>
<DIV> </DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>Stoves
mailing list<BR><BR>to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<BR><A
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR><BR>to
UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web
page<BR>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org<BR><BR>for
more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
site:<BR>http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>Stoves
mailing list<BR><BR>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<BR><A
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR><BR>to
UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web
page<BR>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org<BR><BR>for
more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
site:<BR>http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR>
<P>
<HR>
_______________________________________________<BR>Stoves mailing list<BR><BR>to
Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<BR>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<BR><BR>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your
List Settings use the web
page<BR>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org<BR><BR>for
more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
site:<BR>http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/<BR><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>