<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">List: CC Kevin<div><br></div><div> I presume Kevin wanted this to go to the full list.</div><div><br></div><div>Ron<br><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On Oct 25, 2013, at 7:47 AM, "Kevin" <<a href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252" http-equiv="Content-Type">
<meta name="GENERATOR" content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.23532">
<div style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space" bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div><font face="Arial">Dear Ron</font></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><b>From:</b>
<a title="rongretlarson@comcast.net" href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">Ronal W. Larson</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="kchisholm@ca.inter.net" href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">Kevin</a> ; <a title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 25, 2013 12:53
AM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Shields E450c as a
way totest char-making stoves(attn: GACC testers)</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Kevin and list</div>
<div><br></div>
<div> There are many reasons for one test procedure rather than
two:</div>
<div><br></div>
<div> All stoves can produce char. It depends on
when and how you stop their operation.</div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"><strong># Where fuel economy is important, then stoves
would be run in a manner to minimize char production. </strong></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div> I have participated in a lot of stove testing - and
users have always saved their char. </div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"><strong># I would suggest that the stove tests that you
have participated in were structured so that reported results were better when
the char was recovered and its energy content was deducted from the input
fuel. Recovery of char from ash is a dirty, unpleasant job, and only desperate
people would recover char from ash for re-burning. A "Full Combustion Stove"
test could include screening of ash for capture and weighing of char, to show
how little was produced, as a percentage of fuel input. A "low percentage
of char production" would be a great selling point for Stove Buyers
wanting to maximize fuel economy. </strong></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div> Char has value, no matter how little is made.</div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"><strong># That is true only if the char is put to a use
where its value is returned to the Fuel Buyer. A dollar bill has value only if
it is exchanged for goods or services... it has no value if it is torn up and
tossed to the winds.</strong></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"> </font></div>
<div> If there is zero char, then there is no extra
cost.</div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"><strong># That is true also, but if, as you say above,
"...all stoves can produce char..." then all stoves could be burdened with the
extra cost of detrermination of the energy content of the char produced. A
"Full Combustion Stove" that produced say 1/2% of fuel input weight as char
would be required to do the "char energy content test", the same as a TLUD
producing say 30% char. That makes no sense.</strong></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div> You will not be able to compare between tests using
the present protocol unless you know the amount of char produced.</div>
<div> There are decades of tests with char production
records. You will lose the ability to compare progress if you stop
measuring char.</div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"><strong># The Proposed Testing Protocols are based on
science and clarity, and are intended to remove the confusion, inaccuricies,
and misdirection assocated with past testing protocols. Comparing "accurate
test results" with "inaccurate test results" serves no useful
purpose.</strong></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div> Some char-making stoves are more efficient (less
annual input material) than many that have no intended production. </div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"><strong># True</strong>. </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div> You need the charcoal amount to show that.</div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"><strong># No, you don't. Just measure fuel input
required to accomplish a given "stove task." That alone will tell you what
stove is more "Fuel Efficient."</strong></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div> Many experts have Ok'd the existing tests. </div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"><strong># The existing tests have served a purpose in
the past. Now, however, the short-comings and inaccuracies of previous tests
are recognized, and are in the process of being
corrected.</strong></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div> Changing the procedures will cost time and money.</div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"><strong># True. However, clear and accurate test results
will save the Funding Agencies and Individual Stove Customers huge amounts of
money in the future by enabling the Purchaser to select stoves that are best
suited for their intended purposes.</strong></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div> Every stove manufacturer should want the charcoal
included - including char makes the efficiency numbers look better (not
as good it could/should, but better).</div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"><strong># This is perhaps a significant part of the
problems with the present stove testing procedures... they were configured by
Stove Manufacturers, to make their stoves look good. Testing protocols are
dishonest, if they are constructed "... to make the efficiency numbers look
better..." The Proposed test protocols are constructed around science,
truth, and clarity.</strong></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div> Those arguing for a change have given no good reason
for that change other than saving a small dollar amount. </div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"><strong># One very good reason for changing the present
stove testing protocols is that the proposed stove testing procedures will
enable Stove Customers to purchase stoves that are best suited to
accomplishing their targets or goals. Others who know more about Stoves than I
do can give many other good reasons for improving the Stove Testing
Protocol.</strong></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div> Much present stove testing is free to the
manufacturer - and they will/should learn a lot from knowing how much energy
is in the char - if they desire to get rid of it.</div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"><strong># If someone is attempting to build a Fuel
Efficient Stove, and if they see significant char in the ashpit, they don't
need tests to tell them that they are doing something significantly
wrong. </strong></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><strong>"Char in Ash Pit = Back to Drawing Board."
</strong></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><strong>On the other hand, the designer of a "Char
Making Stove" will indeed find tests on char production and energy content
very important. However, it is unfair to burden a Fuel Efficient Stove
manufacturer with the requirement to test the char, when he already
knows that char production will cut into the Fuel Efficiency Rating for his
stove. </strong></font></div>
<div> </div>
<div>There are probably more; this list is not intended to be
exhaustive.</div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"><strong># I find that:</strong></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><strong>1: your above points do not justify retaining
present Stove Testing Protocols</strong></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><strong>2: it is unfair and un-necessary to burden "Full
Combustion Stove Manufacturers" with the cost of testing charcoal for its
energy content.</strong></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><strong>3: that the proposed Stove Testing Protocols
will be much more helpful to the Stove Buyer, and will greatly help the Stove
Buyer select a stove that best meets his wants and
needs.</strong></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><strong></strong></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"><strong># If you have otrher reasons for wanting to stay
with teh present Stove Testing Protocols, please present them for
consideration</strong>.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"><strong>Kevin</strong></font></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Ron</div>
<div><br></div><br>
<div>
<div>On Oct 24, 2013, at 6:55 PM, Kevin <<a href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</a>>
wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<meta name="GENERATOR" content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.23532">
<div style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space" bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div><font face="Arial">Dear Ron</font></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><b>From:</b>
<a title="rongretlarson@comcast.net" href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">Ronal W. Larson</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass
cooking stoves</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 24, 2013 6:28
PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Shields E450c
as a way totest char-making stoves(attn: GACC testers)</div>
<div><br></div>Paul and "stoves":
<div><br></div>
<div> I would add that it is very important also that all
stoves (not just char-making stoves) be rated on their production of
char.</div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"># Why do you feel that ALL stoves should be forced
to pay for the extra expense of the testing associated with the
determination of the energy loss to the char? It is reasonable to require
that stoves intended to produce char be tested for their char producing
capability, but it does not make sense to require "Full Combustion Stoves"
to be tested for char.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div> The rating should be in kilos, percentages and energy
terms. I guess (not sure) that "fuel" means kg and its %; energy
means joules and its %. Fortunately these are all being given now by
EPA and (I think) GACC. Some wish to call anything related to char
as non-existent (consumed) - which makes no sense to me. I am
not changing your response to Kevin - only making sure that the emphasis
in this discussion be on the words "char-production" in your last
sentence. </div>
<div><br></div>
<div> Until we have a better alternative to the words
"<i style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> minus the energy remaining in the
char" - </i><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial">we are stuck with it -
although that approach undervalues the char.</span></div>
<div><br></div>
<div> This is the same answer I give to Kevin who wrote
earlier today, with his and my emphasis on the word "minus":</div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"># It seems to me that there are two fundamentally
different "Stove Systems":</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">1: Those that are of a design intended to
minimize the requirement for fuel input</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">and</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">2: Those that are of a design intended to produce
char, for other desirable purposes.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"># It thus follows that there should be two test
procedures to enable comparison of stoves within each class. Inherently a
"Full Combustion Stove" will have less fuel consumption than a stove that
inherently loses a significant portion of teh fuel energy as char.
</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"># If the "Class 1 Stoves were tested for "Fuel
Efficiency", and teh "Class 2" stoves were tested for both fuel efficiency
and the fuel energy remaining in the char, then stoves in each class could
be rated on their intended performance. Additionally, however, the fuel
efficiency of both classes could be compared, so that a Stove Buyer would
know how much more fuel he would have to purchase for a heating/cooking
task, and also, how much residual char he could expect. It strikes me as
pointless and unfair to require a Class 1 Stove manufacturer to do a char
test, when his stove is producing little or no char.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Best wishes,</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Kevin</font></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>
<div><font face="Arial"><i>
<div><font face="Arial">Dear Ron</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Do you believe that wood burning stoves will be
rated for fuel consumption, but that "char making stoves" will be rated
for</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">fuel consumption minus the energy remaining in the
char?</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Kevin</font></div></i></font></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"></blockquote></div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On Oct 24, 2013, at 10:13 AM, Paul Anderson <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>>
wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Kevin and all,<br><br>All stoves should be
rated on ENERGY consumption as well as FUEL
consumption. That is not too much to
expect. And would alert the readers of the test reports to
the difference that char-production accomplishes in some
stoves.<br><br>Paul<br><pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com/">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>On
10/24/2013 11:00 AM, Kevin wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote cite="mid:F9AB54ECEC764CF1BE1D1233C3191926@usera594fda0bf" type="cite">
<meta name="GENERATOR" content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.23532">
<style></style>
<div> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
<div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><b>From:</b> <a title="kchisholm-inter@uniserve.com" href="mailto:kchisholm-inter@uniserve.com" moz-do-not-send="true">Kevin</a> </div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" moz-do-not-send="true">Discussion of biomass cooking stoves</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 24, 2013 12:42 AM</div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Shields E450c as a way to test
char-making stoves(attn: GACC testers)</div></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><font face="Arial">
<div><font face="Arial">Dear Ron</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Do you believe that wood burning stoves will be
rated for fuel consumption, but that "char making stoves" will be
rated for </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">fuel consumption minus the energy remaining in
the char?</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Kevin</font></div></font></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><b>From:</b>
<a title="rongretlarson@comcast.net" href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" moz-do-not-send="true">Ronal
W. Larson</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="crispinpigott@gmail.com" href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true">Crispin Pemberton-Pigott</a> ; <a title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" moz-do-not-send="true">Discussion of biomass</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, October 23,
2013 2:16 PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Shields
E450c as a way to test char-making stoves(attn: GACC testers)</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Crispin cc stoves</div>
<div><br></div>
<div> Fine.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Ron</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div><br>
<div>
<div>On Oct 23, 2013, at 11:10 AM, <a href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)" data-blackberry-caret-color="#00a8df">
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Dear
Ron</div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><br></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><br></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">We'll
at least this time you are not putting words in my mouth, you are
just misunderstanding what I write and as far as I see,
deliberately so. </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><br></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">If
you have no more questions I will be happy to move on. </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><br></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Regards </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Crispin
</div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><br></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">>>Q10>>></div>
<table style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: white; BORDER-SPACING: 0px" width="100%">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)" colspan="2">
<div style="BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE: none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma, 'BB Alpha Sans', 'Slate
Pro'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; BORDER-LEFT-STYLE: none; BORDER-TOP: rgb(181,196,223) 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 3pt" id="_persistentHeader">
<div><b>From: </b>Ronal W. Larson</div>
<div><b>Sent: </b>Wednesday, October 23, 2013 12:47</div>
<div><b>To: </b>Crispin Pemberton-Pigott; Discussion of
biomass</div>
<div><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] Shields E450c as a way to
test char-making stoves (attn:<br>GACC
testers)</div></div></td></tr></tbody></table><br>
<div id="_originalContent"><base href="x-msg://10535/">
<div>Crispin and list</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>#1. You have added only extraneous material re naming,
China, kilns. You did not at all address the issue of
treating char-making stoves fairly.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>#a. Same response. You did not address the topic
of differentiating between char-making stoves. Apparently
you are happy that your money making stove in Indonesia will
receive a report that says nothing about the char produced?</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>#b1 Same response. You have a typo "<span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><i>for
a that stove</i>" </span>that precludes a definitive
answer since I don't know whether to strike "a" or "the". I
continue to believe that the present approach being used by Jim
reports everything you ask for - and always has. The only
new material I know about I am delighted with - the amount of char
and the energy in the char is specifically now provided. It
was always there, but hidden. Char-making stove people
couldn't be happier with this small change in reported
results.</div>
<div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><br></span></div>
<div>#b2 -i You write about the formula A/(B-C):
"... <span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">it
has been misleading people ever since it was
introduced"</span></div>
<div> I agree. - but for opposite
reasons than you. It undervalues the production of char.
I am willing to let it ride, since my preference is also
being shown.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div> - ii You write: "<span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><i> </i></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><i>Char?
Fine, if it too can be burned as fuel. If it is not usable, it is
not fuel. Same as ash as far as that stove is concerned."
</i></span>I am sorry that you don't see
how unfair this statement is to char-making stoves -- where people
(including you) can make money on the char - whether used as fuel
or put in the ground. You are taking income away from the
poorest with your stance.</div>
<div> </div>
<div> - iii Your last sentences: <span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><i>The
WBT was changed and that was the major point of Jim’s recent
webinar to which you posed a number of questions and which he
answered repeatedly. </i></span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">
</span>[RWL: And I was happy with all the
answers.]</div>
<div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><br></span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><i>I
am again answering that same question. </i></span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">
</span><i style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </i><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </span>[RWL:
With answers different from Jim's]</div>
<div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><br></span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><i>The
fuel consumption considers whether or not the remaining fuel is
fuel for that same stove. If it is not, it shall be considered
consumed.</i></span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">
</span><i style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </i><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </span>[RWL:
You are (I think) the only one saying this should be the
rule. Certainly no-one who thinks making char in a stove is
better economically and environmentally - regardless of where it
ends up. Of course for climate reasons I want it to go in
the ground, but I started on this topic in the early 1990s
just to save trees. Char-making stoves can do both, but
since char-makig stoves are more efficient and cleaner, char-using
stoves are on their way out.</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div lang="EN-CA" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div style="page: WordSection1" class="WordSection1">
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">End
of short story. Take it up with Jim if you do not agree with
this
reality.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></blockquote>
<span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </span>[RWL:
I see no need to. I think Jim is handling "reality"
correctly and has already said so on this list several times.]
<div>
<div lang="EN-CA" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div style="page: WordSection1" class="WordSection1">
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><br></span></div></div></div></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div><br>
<div>
<div>On Oct 22, 2013, at 5:56 PM, "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott"
<<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="WIDOWS: 2; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; FONT: medium Helvetica; WHITE-SPACE: normal; ORPHANS: 2; LETTER-SPACING: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px" lang="EN-CA" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div style="page: WordSection1" class="WordSection1">
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Dear
Ron<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
<div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">></span>Crispin
and stoves list (again ignored -
why?)<o:p></o:p></div></div>
<div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p></o:p></div></div>
<div>
<div style="TEXT-INDENT: -18pt; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt 36pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New
Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span>1.<span style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span>The
"game" I am playing is to ensure that charcoal-making
stoves are treated fairly. Saying that existing char at
the end of a run has been "consumed" is not
fair.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">How
do you suggest we term the fuel that enters a stove once, each
time the stove is operated through a burning cycle? Should that
be the fuel consumed? The fuel needed per cycle? The fuel use?
The fuel demand? Give it a name and let’s see how it
flies.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">We
are speaking of course of raw biomass in this case. Whatever
biomass goes into a stove, per cycle, drawn from the available
supply, and which needs to be drawn again the next time, needs a
name.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">In
the strict sense of the word ‘consumed’ it has been consumed as
far as that stove is concerned. In another sense, from an
outside perspective which can see additional uses for that
remainder, whether it be ashes or char, it has ‘produced
something’. No problem. One can view it that way, but it will
not change the raw fuel demand for a new cycle unless some of it
is fuel to that same stove. There is no other practical way to
communicate to people the amount of fuel a stove requires to be
harvested and provided each day.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">In
China they have a test that runs for a month. A stove is
installed and cooked upon each day for a month. The amount of
fuel it consumes during that month is calculated. Then they know
what the fuel consumption really is. If there is a huge pile of
char left afterwards, they do not consider that an ‘efficiency’.
I can’t say I am surprised.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">If
you are in the char making business, you still have to consider
how many cubic metres of trees are needed each day. That is the
raw fuel consumption of the char making kiln. The char produced
is not a raw fuel efficiency, it is the output efficiency of the
char making process. No problem.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">We
both owe a duty of care to the people buying and promoting
stoves to correctly report the amount of biomass that is needed
to fuel the stove per cycle or per day or per
month.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div>
<div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p></o:p></div></div>
<div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">2.
Under a) - I repeat my original claim - you have no test
in mind that will differentiate between char-making stoves.
If char is there, it has not been
"consumed".<o:p></o:p></div></div>
<div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Well
you can read the above again if you like. If there is char
remaining<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>that
is not fuel for the stove from which it came</i>, it comes from
fuel which the stove consumed. Word it as you like. I thought
you would be asking for a report on the char production
efficiency with a rating on the energy content per kg and the %
volatiles. That would make sense if you wanted to sell it for
income. I am hoping to do exactly that in an area of Indonesia
where there are many candle nut shells. It makes really good
charcoal fuel when burned in a TLUD which people can sell for
income.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">When
assessing the fuel consumption of the TLUD that makes that char,
we will get the mass of fuel consumed per cycle, the energy
content and rate it accordingly. Another stove that burns the
same fuel and cooks the same amount and produces no char will
consume a lot less raw material. All we are doing is reporting
how much the stove consume per cycle.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div></div>
<div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">3.
Under b) - The key sentences are your final two:
<i> </i><i><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">The
direct cause is that the more char produced, the less fuel was
claimed to have been consumed, which is clearly untrue. That is
why the WBT was changed."
</span></i>If char exists, the claim of less fuel is
"clearly true", not "<i>clearly untrue". <span style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><o:p></o:p></span></i></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">My
claim is related to the amount of raw biomass needed to be put
into the stove each time it is used. Your claim is to view the
char remaining as fuel. This may or may not be true for a
particular stove. If that char is fuel for a that stove, then
the char can be credited as unburned fuel. The point is to tell
the prospective buyer what the raw fuel consumption
is.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Further,
the use of the formula A/(B-C) goes back at least to VITA
days and is in there today. On this main point under
dispute, the WBT was NOT changed (thank goodness). Or if I
am wrong, please give a cite.<o:p></o:p></div></div>
<div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Yes
it does go back that far and it has been misleading people ever
since it was introduced. It was written on the basis that
the desired measurement was<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>not</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>the raw fuel consumed
each cycle, but the efficiency with which the heat was developed
in the fire and transferred to the pot. That is why it was
called (in those tests) the ‘heat transfer efficiency’. It
isn’t really the heat transfer efficiency, but it was given that
name. The heat transfer efficiency is a useful number for stove
designers. When making changes like pot to stove clearance the
number will change. But it is not and never was the fuel
consumption figure, even for the fry fuel consumption, because
the consumption depends on what happens to the fuel remaining.
If it is long sticks that can be burned tomorrow, fine, it is
unburned fuel. Char? Fine, if it too can be burned as fuel. If
it is not usable, it is not fuel. Same as ash as far as that
stove is concerned.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">The
WBT was changed and that was the major point of Jim’s recent
webinar to which you posed a number of questions and which he
answered repeatedly. I am again answering that same question.
The fuel consumption considers whether or not the remaining fuel
is fuel for that same stove. If it is not, it shall be
considered consumed.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">End
of short story. Take it up with Jim if you do not agree with
this reality.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Regards<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Crispin<o:p></o:p></span></div><p style="MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt" class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span></p></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br><!--end of _originalContent --></div></div></blockquote></div><br>
<div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
<hr>
_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing
list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<br><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to
UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>for
more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
site:<br><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br><br></blockquote><br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset> <br><pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a>
</pre></blockquote><br></div>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves
mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to
UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>for
more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
site:<br><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br><br></blockquote></div><br></div>
<div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
<hr>
<div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves
mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to
UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web
page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>for
more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
site:<br>http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/<br><br></blockquote></div>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves
mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to
UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web
page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>for
more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
site:<br>http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/<br><br></blockquote></div><br></blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div></body></html>