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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear AD</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>800,000,000 tons of Agricultural Waste is indeed a huge
potential resource! How should it be handled to be of the highest possible value
to the People of India?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Clearly:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>* Some should be returned to the soil directly to improve
soil organic matter</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>* Some should be composted, and added back to the
soil</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>* Some should be converted to char for use as
biochar</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>* Some should be converted to char for use as
fuel</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>* Some should be used directly as fuel</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>* Some should be processed into pellets or briquettes for
energy use</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>* Some should be used as animal feed</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>* Some should be incinerated simply to dispose of excess
in the least costly manner</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>* Some should be used to make useful
by-products</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>* Others....???</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I would suggest that the People of India would get the
greatest value for this potential resource if it was put to "diverse uses",
rather than all being used for a single purpose. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Best wishes,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Kevin</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=adkarve@gmail.com href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com">Anand Karve</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, November 15, 2013 2:31
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] planting trees (
the way I'd do it 1, 000, 000, 000 years from now)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>Dear Stovers,
<DIV> We convert agricultural waste into charcoal by using a TLUD type of
kiln and briquette the powdery char. In India, we produce annually about 800
million tons of agricultural waste, which can theoretically yield about 166
million tons of charcoal. There is no need to cut any trees for
charcoal. </DIV>
<DIV>Yours</DIV>
<DIV>A.D.Karve</DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_extra><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 9:43 PM, Cookswell Jikos <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:cookswelljikos@gmail.com"
target=_blank>cookswelljikos@gmail.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV class=im>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT face=Arial>OK.... as discouraging as
the facts may be, the facts are reality, and they must be dealt with to
avoid future problems.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT face=Arial>1: Can different species be
grown, that have higher Mean Annual Increments of growth?</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>Yes - at least in East African drylands
- the traditional colonial methods of silviculture were focused on high land
pine and cypress plantations not indigenous dry land
adapted trees. (which now provides the feedstock for more of Kenyas
charcoal) Since 1994 we have been experimenting with different dryland
planting and agronomic techniques (please see <A
href="http://www.acts.or.ke/dmdocuments/PROJECT_REPORTS/PISCES_Sustainable_Charcoal.pdf"
target=_blank>http://www.acts.or.ke/dmdocuments/PROJECT_REPORTS/PISCES_Sustainable_Charcoal.pdf</A> pg.
7) and most of our findings so far have led us to belive that endimic tree
species managed in a holistic and permacutrual manner produce coppiced
'branch' charcoal with an excellent life cycle analysis
profile. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=im>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT face=Arial><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT face=Arial>2: Can the woodlots be
managed better?</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT face=Arial>I think there is always room for
improvement in many fields, but I have definitely noticed more
small and large farms in Kenya appling more of a conservation
agriculture approach to land use planning. </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=im>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT face=Arial><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT face=Arial>3: Can cooking practises be
changed?</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>Yes - but with great difficulty.
Imagine me coming from Kenya to tell your grandma that she's all wrong and
vice versa... </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>What I have found though is that as
people achieve higher incomes (and watch more TV) in East Africa
cooking energy sources becomes more mixed and
more specialized depending on the dish being
cooked. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=im>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT face=Arial><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT face=Arial>4: Would more efficient
stoves help significantly?</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT face=Arial>The Kenya Ceramic Jiko has been
one of the most widely disseminated cookstoves in East Africa, on one hand,
it saves users up to 50% on their charcoal bills compared to all metal
non-insulated stoves. On the other hand, me and my father always wondered
that if by making popularly stove that made it cheaper
and easier to use charcoal coupled
with population growth, did we not create more of a
fuel dependency? This is why since the 1990's we have been advocating
as much as possible to encourage all other stove makers to also think about
provisions for reafforestation efforts. </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=im>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT face=Arial>5: Can other forms of fuel,
or other sources of energy, be used to take some of the pressure off
the woodlots?</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT color=#0000ff>Please see this recently
released quite amazing document from ICRAF <A
href="http://www.slideshare.net/agroforestry/miyuki-iiyamaicrafcharcoal-review2013"
target=_blank>http://www.slideshare.net/agroforestry/miyuki-iiyamaicrafcharcoal-review2013</A> ''What
happend to the charcoal crisis?''</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT color=#0000ff><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT color=#0000ff>Yes, but if as WWF has
seen in Virunga, if people switch to fossil fuels, what happens when they
are found under forests? And even solar cookers and microwaves may not help
as much as if one takes into account the Life Cycle Analysis of the
transport, computing power to design one etc... a 3 stone fire and growing
your own trees start looking more attractive. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT color=#0000ff><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT face=Arial>I am a
great proponent of tree based biomass energy for at least people's
sunday BBQ's ( which is a huge cause of charcoal us in Kenya!) due to the
fact of all the other ecological trickledown
effects. </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=im>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT face=Arial><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT face=Arial>6: Would some form of
"Agroforestry" be possible, to put the land to a higher use, with
multi-cropping?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT face=Arial>...etc...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT face=Arial><BR></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>yes we have tried food, fuel and fodder
combinations to good effect in Kajiado - linear non-woodlot forestry is
beginning to create more of an appearance in this area as land
becomes adjudicated and title deeds issued. Land tenure is a
huge obstacle to forestry in Kenya, this is why
I personally am in favour of things like aerial seeding programs -
if we some how grow too many trees, we will always be able to cut them down
to cook with! <A
href="https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.622109591163773.1073741929.199734683401268&type=1&l=0b605799ef"
target=_blank>https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.622109591163773.1073741929.199734683401268&type=1&l=0b605799ef</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>Many thanks for
your response. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>Teddy </FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_extra><BR clear=all>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV><B>Cookswell Jikos</B><BR><A href="http://www.cookswell.co.ke"
target=_blank>www.cookswell.co.ke</A></DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.facebook.com/CookswellJikos"
target=_blank>www.facebook.com/CookswellJikos</A></DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com"
target=_blank>www.kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com</A></DIV>
<DIV>Mobile: +254 700 380 009 <BR></DIV>
<DIV>Mobile: +254 700 905 913</DIV>
<DIV>P.O. Box 1433, Nairobi 00606, Kenya</DIV>
<DIV><IMG width=71 height=96><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>
<DIV>
<DIV class=h5>On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 5:15 AM, <SPAN dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:Carefreeland@aol.com"
target=_blank>Carefreeland@aol.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR></DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV>
<DIV class=h5><U></U>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><FONT color=#000000
face=Arial>
<DIV>
<DIV>Kevin and Stovers, </DIV>
<DIV> I am desperately wanting to farther study
points 1,2,5 and 6. You got my attention buddy. Sorry, I don't have a 100
year old experiment to show you the results of my work. I do not do
research papers because I'm an illiterate idiot. Many of you who have been
on this list a while may remember- this letter will be a small record of
the state of a sample of my research. Nobody has me asked this lately but
you, Kevin. I'll probably die knowing and wanting to know way more than I
can ever tell, if I talked the rest of my life. It just seems to bore
everybody but some Biomass people. I miss you all out here alone trapped
in the future. </DIV>
<DIV> My extensive experience with landscaping and
gardening suggests we have only begun to barely scratch the surface of
multicropping research. Mother Nature has done an amazing job of this, but
we are not after the same goals as her. Typical natural forestry suggests
that a 3 layer canopy is most efficent in biomass productive environments.
As we push into less productive land, that will be different in both
directions. . What each layer consists of for any given set of
environmental conditions is has wide increasingly complex variables.
Someday 100 years from now, a computer program will be crunching in
whatever is the Cray Super Computer of that age. It will tell the then
modern forester what works best- maybe. Then, only experiments to compare
the real time data to to the computer model will fine tune the long term
plan. </DIV>
<DIV> Modern complex forestry computer programs
mostly focus on select harvest models. Computer planting programs just use
current harvest data to optimise plantation - type management. How
do you get data on trees that take 300 years or more to be fully
mature? Recent studies suggest that 1000 year old Redwoods are still
increasing in biomass production over younger trees. Got 1000 years to
collect data?? Maybe we should be breeding many trees to grow 1000 years.
</DIV>
<DIV> If we make half the progress growing trees
that we have made in a typical productive vegetable garden in 4000 or more
years, you can throw out the predictions for production numbers. New
numbers may be easily a power of ten more productive. Just look what small
changes have brought us. When you consider the efficiency of
photosynthisis to convert sunlight into chemical energy, that number
theoreticlly can go two powers of ten or more. Not only do we need to
first optimise growing technique, but then optimise breeding, and back to
growing technique and so fourth. </DIV>
<DIV> I don't even want to consider pandoras box
of geneticly modified plants. I think outer space is the best place
to release them so they don't contaminate our biosphere like GM corn has.
I considered that thought over 20 years ago and it merged with my
childhood idea of growing trees on the moon and on orbit. That is
why I've wanted to merge a greenhouse with a blacksmith shop. It's how
space homesteads will do it. I discussed this issue at a hydroponics
conference in the early 1990's and everybodys eyes rolled, so I just went
out and worked on it with what I had. Nobody came to collect the amazing
data I saw everyday for twenty years. A few years ago, my
greenhouse was forced to close and my finacial situation has nearly halted
all my research. I hope to slowly get back in the game if I don't loose my
new 5 acre farm. It is Gods gift to me for my study. Most of the assets of
this land are hidden and only of use to me. </DIV>
<DIV> Most of the forests today are being
primarlily managed for lumber of some type. Hunting wildlife is about
the only large second crop. Small private lands and prototype corporate
plantations are where the experiments are being done. When we start to
combine orchard and vegetable production with forestry, the sky is the
limit. I take that back, how far has the Big Bang blown things open today?
That is the limit. And this is how we will get out there if we do, over a
billion years of future evolution and space travel. Call me crazy, but I
saw a powerful vision as a child that told me this. You just keep moving
the decimal point on the equation. Carl Sagan must have seen a vision like
mine, and so I supported his work long ago. Most thought he was craazy
too. Thanks Carl. </DIV>
<DIV> I have been blessed to spend a little time
with one of the greatest foresters of our generation. John Guthrie of
Wiggins Mississippi fame. My crash course in Southern USA forestry,
shortly after Hurricane Katrina, taught me the following: The closer we
get to understanding the original native environment, the better we can
merge our needs to the use of the land given to us. </DIV>
<DIV> John would be first to tell you that if only
a higher power can make a tree, who are we to decide how and where to grow
it? That has led him to push the reintroduction of missing native tree
species which have been eliminated one at a time. Grown in
plantations to examine and focuse on each, longleaf pine is a good
example. It was like the White Oak tree, the king of the forest, until it
was logged nearly to extinction. Currently, burning of undergrowth is done
like the Natives did for management in early stage plantations. Timing is
everything. We had lively conversation about grazing and/ or underplanting
of numerous shrub species to reduce this practice. I think I opened up his
mind by the smile on his face. Some private plantations were doing this on
a very basic experimental level in 2006. </DIV>
<DIV> The forest plot I was camped in, had longleaf
pine being interplanted where select thining was being done to young
Southern Yellow Pine, It was John"s land right behind the International
Paper plant, so I think it was a prototype. The thinnings were going
mostly to chip and saw for OSB and other products. The small thinings were
hauled at harvest cost for pulp. Katrina opened it up more - as if God
were saying to John " you got the idea boy, now go with it and I'll help
yu". </DIV>
<DIV> Dr. Michler I belive is his name,
discussed his work at Purdue U. with me about 10 years ago. At the time he
was pioneering in the selecting of 3 hardwood species: Red Oak,
Black Cherry, and Walnut. An Indiana nursery was selling the products of
tissue culture of the best selected species. Breeding of hardwoods was
still in it's infancy. The new science then was using gene mapping to
select known genes to assist breeding of trees which were only starting to
bear fruit. That is very exciting -more productive and safe than GM
plants. I called because I wanted to know if anybody had studied
growing trees to make charcoal fuel and he wondered what for.....
</DIV>
<DIV> Kevin, I would like to add to your bucket
list a huge compounding factor number 7. What happens when we
do all of the above, yet look at secondary and multiple layers of
recycling of plants. For a great example you and I may have discussed the
fact that Charcoal production for an industrial fuel may be the best
utimate landfill killer. Demolition waste must be the largest growing
filler of landfills. I have done limited research into which trees produce
the best metallurgical charcoal. What happens when we breed trees for
example, to both build houses, then reuse the wood to fuel a blast furnace
to make the finest iron ever made?. The two uses are very compatible. Just
so happens that some of the strongest hardwoods as well as pine species
make real clean charcoal. The hardwoods make the most dense charcoal by
nature. We can also infuse charcoal with additional hydrocarbons in the
conversion process, with net energy production. If we grow walnut trees
for example, we can produce food and many chemicals too at no additional
cost. </DIV>
<DIV> Nearly every organic chemical can be coaxed
from living material. Don't even get me started on the chemical
refinery/production avenue. I've said enough. I cannot do much more or
take time to record what I've found out or can find out without a
break in life somewhere. That is why I don't contribute much anymore to
these lists. It gets me all excited, and then frustration sets in. I have
3 kids to raise and cannot waste my time playing with the future of
mankind when I need food stamps. </DIV>
<DIV> Enough said. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> Ok , do I have anybodies attention
now??? </DIV>
<DIV> I have to get off the computer so my Son can
do his homework, Sorry, no time for editing or additional info
tonight. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> Dan Dimiduk </DIV>
<DIV> Shangri- La Research. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 11/13/2013 7:41:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, <A
href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net"
target=_blank>kchisholm@ca.inter.net</A> writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 face=Arial>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear RB</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>OK.... as discouraging as the facts may be, the
facts are reality, and they must be dealt with to avoid future
problems.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>1: Can different species be grown, that have
higher Mean Annual Increments of growth?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>2: Can the woodlots be managed
better?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>3: Can cooking practises be changed?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>4: Would more efficient stoves help
significantly?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>5: Can other forms of fuel, or other sources of
energy, be used to take some of the pressure off the
woodlots?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>6: Would some form of "Agroforestry" be possible,
to put the land to a higher use, with multi-cropping?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>...etc...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Most people like to do things the way they have
always been done. They can't expect different results if they do things
the same way they have always done things in the past. The cruel facts
are that if they want different results, then they will have to find
changes that are acceptable to them, OR choose to live with the
consequences of their present practises. Those seem to be the cruel
realities.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Best wishes,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Kevin</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
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<DIV><BR></DIV>-- <BR>***<BR>Dr. A.D. Karve<BR>Trustee & Founder
President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)<BR><BR></DIV>
<P>
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