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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear A.D.,<br>
There are many different sizes of briquettes. Is there a local
standard size or shape? or is there a wide size range being used?<br>
<br>
Alex<br>
<br>
On 16/11/2013 9:12 PM, Anand Karve wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CACPy7ScxLWBkS0PB=HogUKLzCSBT1yqw-uyj269gT4E4d+ipPA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div>Dear Kevin,</div>
<div>at least in my State (Maharashtra, India), there are some 150
factories which compress agricultural waste into fuel
briquettes. They pay farmers Rs.2000 per ton (about US$33) for
the agri-waste, so that the farmers transport it at their own
cost to the factory. Industries use these briquettes as boiler
fuel. Using biomass briquettes costs only 30% of what one would
pay for fuel oil.<br>
Yours</div>
<div>A.D.Karve<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 3:26 PM, Kevin <span
dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net" target="_blank">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;PADDING-LEFT:1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div><font face="Arial">Dear AD</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">800,000,000 tons of Agricultural
Waste is indeed a huge potential resource! How should it
be handled to be of the highest possible value to the
People of India?</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Clearly:</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">* Some should be returned to the
soil directly to improve soil organic matter</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">* Some should be composted, and
added back to the soil</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">* Some should be converted to char
for use as biochar</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">* Some should be converted to char
for use as fuel</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">* Some should be used directly as
fuel</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">* Some should be processed into
pellets or briquettes for energy use</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">* Some should be used as animal feed</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">* Some should be incinerated simply
to dispose of excess in the least costly manner</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">* Some should be used to make useful
by-products</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">* Others....???</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">I would suggest that the People of
India would get the greatest value for this potential
resource if it was put to "diverse uses", rather than
all being used for a single purpose. </font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Best wishes,</font></div>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Kevin</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
</font></span>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#000000 2px
solid;PADDING-LEFT:5px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;MARGIN-LEFT:5px;MARGIN-RIGHT:0px">
<div>
<div class="h5">
<div style="FONT:10pt arial">----- Original Message
----- </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial;BACKGROUND:#e4e4e4"><b>From:</b>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" title="adkarve@gmail.com"
href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com" target="_blank">Anand
Karve</a> </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target="_blank">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</a> </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Friday,
November 15, 2013 2:31 AM</div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re:
[Stoves] planting trees ( the way I'd do it 1, 000,
000, 000 years from now)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">Dear Stovers,
<div> We convert agricultural waste into charcoal by
using a TLUD type of kiln and briquette the
powdery char. In India, we produce annually about
800 million tons of agricultural waste, which can
theoretically yield about 166 million tons of
charcoal. There is no need to cut any trees for
charcoal. </div>
<div>Yours</div>
<div>A.D.Karve</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at
9:43 PM, Cookswell Jikos <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:cookswelljikos@gmail.com"
target="_blank">cookswelljikos@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px
solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;PADDING-LEFT:1ex"
class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY:Arial"><font
face="Arial">OK.... as discouraging as
the facts may be, the facts are reality,
and they must be dealt with to avoid
future problems.</font></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY:Arial"><font
face="Arial">1: Can different species be
grown, that have higher Mean Annual
Increments of growth?</font></div>
</div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial">Yes -
at least in East African drylands - the
traditional colonial methods of
silviculture were focused on high land
pine and cypress plantations
not indigenous dry land adapted trees.
(which now provides the feedstock for more
of Kenyas charcoal) Since 1994 we have
been experimenting with different dryland
planting and agronomic techniques (please
see <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.acts.or.ke/dmdocuments/PROJECT_REPORTS/PISCES_Sustainable_Charcoal.pdf"
target="_blank">http://www.acts.or.ke/dmdocuments/PROJECT_REPORTS/PISCES_Sustainable_Charcoal.pdf</a> pg.
7) and most of our findings so far have
led us to belive that endimic tree species
managed in a holistic and permacutrual
manner produce coppiced 'branch' charcoal
with an excellent life cycle analysis
profile. </font></div>
<div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY:Arial"><font
face="Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY:Arial"><font
face="Arial">2: Can the woodlots be
managed better?</font></div>
</div>
<div><font color="#0000ff"><font face="Arial">I
think there is always room for
improvement in many fields, but I
have definitely noticed more small and
large farms in Kenya appling more of a
conservation agriculture approach to
land use planning. </font></font></div>
<div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY:Arial"><font
face="Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY:Arial"><font
face="Arial">3: Can cooking practises be
changed?</font></div>
</div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial">Yes -
but with great difficulty. Imagine me
coming from Kenya to tell your grandma
that she's all wrong and vice versa... </font></div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial">What I
have found though is that as
people achieve higher incomes (and watch
more TV) in East Africa cooking energy
sources becomes more mixed and
more specialized depending on the dish
being cooked. </font></div>
<div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY:Arial"><font
face="Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY:Arial"><font
face="Arial">4: Would more efficient
stoves help significantly?</font></div>
</div>
<div><font color="#0000ff"><font face="Arial">The
Kenya Ceramic Jiko has been one of the
most widely disseminated cookstoves in
East Africa, on one hand, it saves users
up to 50% on their charcoal bills
compared to all metal non-insulated
stoves. On the other hand, me and my
father always wondered that if by making
popularly stove that made it cheaper
and easier to use charcoal coupled
with population growth, did we not
create more of a fuel dependency? This
is why since the 1990's we have been
advocating as much as possible to
encourage all other stove makers to also
think about provisions for
reafforestation efforts. </font></font></div>
<div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY:Arial"><br>
</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY:Arial"><br>
</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY:Arial"><font
face="Arial">5: Can other forms of fuel,
or other sources of energy, be used to
take some of the pressure off the
woodlots?</font></div>
</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY:Arial"><font
color="#0000ff">Please see this recently
released quite amazing document from
ICRAF <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.slideshare.net/agroforestry/miyuki-iiyamaicrafcharcoal-review2013"
target="_blank">http://www.slideshare.net/agroforestry/miyuki-iiyamaicrafcharcoal-review2013</a> ''What
happend to the charcoal crisis?''</font></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY:Arial"><font
color="#0000ff"><br>
</font></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY:Arial"><font
color="#0000ff">Yes, but if as WWF has
seen in Virunga, if people switch to
fossil fuels, what happens when they are
found under forests? And even solar
cookers and microwaves may not help as
much as if one takes into account the Life
Cycle Analysis of the transport, computing
power to design one etc... a 3 stone fire
and growing your own trees start looking
more attractive. </font></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY:Arial"><font
color="#0000ff"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font color="#0000ff"><font face="Arial">I
am a great proponent of tree based
biomass energy for at least people's
sunday BBQ's ( which is a huge cause of
charcoal us in Kenya!) due to the fact
of all the other ecological trickledown
effects. </font></font></div>
<div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY:Arial"><font
face="Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY:Arial"><font
face="Arial">6: Would some form of
"Agroforestry" be possible, to put the
land to a higher use, with
multi-cropping?</font></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY:Arial"><font
face="Arial">...etc...</font></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY:Arial"><font
face="Arial"><br>
</font></div>
</div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial">yes we
have tried food, fuel and fodder
combinations to good effect in Kajiado -
linear non-woodlot forestry is beginning
to create more of an appearance in this
area as land becomes adjudicated and title
deeds issued. Land tenure is a
huge obstacle to forestry in Kenya, this
is why I personally am in favour of things
like aerial seeding programs - if we some
how grow too many trees, we will always be
able to cut them down to cook with! <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.622109591163773.1073741929.199734683401268&type=1&l=0b605799ef"
target="_blank">https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.622109591163773.1073741929.199734683401268&type=1&l=0b605799ef</a></font></div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial">Many
thanks for your response. </font></div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial">Teddy </font></div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div><b>Cookswell Jikos</b><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.cookswell.co.ke/"
target="_blank">www.cookswell.co.ke</a></div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.facebook.com/CookswellJikos"
target="_blank">www.facebook.com/CookswellJikos</a></div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com/"
target="_blank">www.kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com</a></div>
<div>Mobile: +254 700 380 009 <br>
</div>
<div>Mobile: +254 700 905 913</div>
<div>P.O. Box 1433, Nairobi 00606, Kenya</div>
<div><img moz-do-not-send="true"
height="96" width="71"><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>
<div>On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 5:15 AM, <span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Carefreeland@aol.com"
target="_blank">Carefreeland@aol.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px
solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;PADDING-LEFT:1ex"
class="gmail_quote">
<div>
<div>
<div
style="FONT-FAMILY:Arial;FONT-SIZE:10pt"><font
color="#000000" face="Arial">
<div>
<div>Kevin and Stovers, </div>
<div> I am desperately
wanting to farther study
points 1,2,5 and 6. You got my
attention buddy. Sorry, I
don't have a 100 year old
experiment to show you the
results of my work. I do not
do research papers because I'm
an illiterate idiot. Many of
you who have been on this list
a while may remember- this
letter will be a small record
of the state of a sample of my
research. Nobody has me asked
this lately but you, Kevin.
I'll probably die knowing and
wanting to know way more than
I can ever tell, if I talked
the rest of my life. It just
seems to bore everybody but
some Biomass people. I miss
you all out here alone trapped
in the future. </div>
<div> My extensive experience
with landscaping and gardening
suggests we have only begun to
barely scratch the surface of
multicropping research. Mother
Nature has done an amazing job
of this, but we are not after
the same goals as her. Typical
natural forestry suggests that
a 3 layer canopy is most
efficent in biomass productive
environments. As we push into
less productive land, that
will be different in both
directions. . What each layer
consists of for any given set
of environmental conditions is
has wide increasingly complex
variables. Someday 100 years
from now, a computer program
will be crunching in whatever
is the Cray Super Computer of
that age. It will tell the
then modern forester what
works best- maybe. Then, only
experiments to compare the
real time data to to the
computer model will fine tune
the long term plan. </div>
<div> Modern complex forestry
computer programs mostly focus
on select harvest models.
Computer planting programs
just use current harvest data
to optimise plantation - type
management. How do you get
data on trees that take 300
years or more to be fully
mature? Recent studies
suggest that 1000 year old
Redwoods are still increasing
in biomass production over
younger trees. Got 1000 years
to collect data?? Maybe we
should be breeding many trees
to grow 1000 years. </div>
<div> If we make half the
progress growing trees that we
have made in a typical
productive vegetable garden in
4000 or more years, you can
throw out the predictions for
production numbers. New
numbers may be easily a power
of ten more productive. Just
look what small changes have
brought us. When you consider
the efficiency of
photosynthisis to convert
sunlight into chemical energy,
that number theoreticlly can
go two powers of ten or more.
Not only do we need to first
optimise growing technique,
but then optimise breeding,
and back to growing technique
and so fourth. </div>
<div> I don't even want to
consider pandoras box
of geneticly modified plants.
I think outer space is the
best place to release them so
they don't contaminate our
biosphere like GM corn has. I
considered that thought over
20 years ago and it merged
with my childhood idea of
growing trees on the moon and
on orbit. That is why I've
wanted to merge a greenhouse
with a blacksmith shop. It's
how space homesteads will do
it. I discussed this issue at
a hydroponics conference in
the early 1990's and
everybodys eyes rolled, so I
just went out and worked on it
with what I had. Nobody came
to collect the amazing data I
saw everyday for twenty
years. A few years ago, my
greenhouse was forced to close
and my finacial situation has
nearly halted all my research.
I hope to slowly get back in
the game if I don't loose my
new 5 acre farm. It is Gods
gift to me for my study. Most
of the assets of this land are
hidden and only of use to me.
</div>
<div> Most of the forests
today are being primarlily
managed for lumber of some
type. Hunting wildlife is
about the only large second
crop. Small private lands and
prototype corporate
plantations are where the
experiments are being done.
When we start to combine
orchard and vegetable
production with forestry, the
sky is the limit. I take that
back, how far has the Big Bang
blown things open today? That
is the limit. And this is how
we will get out there if we
do, over a billion years of
future evolution and space
travel. Call me crazy, but I
saw a powerful vision as a
child that told me this. You
just keep moving the decimal
point on the equation. Carl
Sagan must have seen a vision
like mine, and so I supported
his work long ago. Most
thought he was craazy too.
Thanks Carl. </div>
<div> I have been blessed to
spend a little time with one
of the greatest foresters of
our generation. John Guthrie
of Wiggins Mississippi fame.
My crash course in Southern
USA forestry, shortly after
Hurricane Katrina, taught me
the following: The closer we
get to understanding the
original native environment,
the better we can merge our
needs to the use of the land
given to us. </div>
<div> John would be first to
tell you that if only a higher
power can make a tree, who are
we to decide how and where to
grow it? That has led him to
push the reintroduction of
missing native tree species
which have been eliminated one
at a time. Grown in
plantations to examine and
focuse on each, longleaf pine
is a good example. It was like
the White Oak tree, the king
of the forest, until it was
logged nearly to extinction.
Currently, burning of
undergrowth is done like the
Natives did for management in
early stage plantations.
Timing is everything. We had
lively conversation about
grazing and/ or underplanting
of numerous shrub species to
reduce this practice. I think
I opened up his mind by the
smile on his face. Some
private plantations were doing
this on a very basic
experimental level in 2006. </div>
<div> The forest plot I was
camped in, had longleaf pine
being interplanted where
select thining was being done
to young Southern Yellow Pine,
It was John"s land right
behind the International Paper
plant, so I think it was a
prototype. The thinnings were
going mostly to chip and saw
for OSB and other products.
The small thinings were hauled
at harvest cost for pulp.
Katrina opened it up more - as
if God were saying to John "
you got the idea boy, now go
with it and I'll help yu". </div>
<div> Dr. Michler I belive is
his name, discussed his work
at Purdue U. with me about 10
years ago. At the time he was
pioneering in the selecting of
3 hardwood species: Red Oak,
Black Cherry, and Walnut. An
Indiana nursery was selling
the products of tissue culture
of the best selected species.
Breeding of hardwoods was
still in it's infancy. The new
science then was using gene
mapping to select known genes
to assist breeding of trees
which were only starting to
bear fruit. That is very
exciting -more productive and
safe than GM plants. I called
because I wanted to know if
anybody had studied growing
trees to make charcoal fuel
and he wondered what for.....
</div>
<div> Kevin, I would like to
add to your bucket list a huge
compounding factor number 7.
What happens when we do all of
the above, yet look at
secondary and multiple layers
of recycling of plants. For a
great example you and I may
have discussed the fact that
Charcoal production for an
industrial fuel may be the
best utimate landfill killer.
Demolition waste must be the
largest growing filler of
landfills. I have done limited
research into which trees
produce the best metallurgical
charcoal. What happens when we
breed trees for example, to
both build houses, then reuse
the wood to fuel a blast
furnace to make the finest
iron ever made?. The two uses
are very compatible. Just so
happens that some of the
strongest hardwoods as well as
pine species make real clean
charcoal. The hardwoods make
the most dense charcoal by
nature. We can also infuse
charcoal with additional
hydrocarbons in the conversion
process, with net energy
production. If we grow walnut
trees for example, we can
produce food and many
chemicals too at no additional
cost. </div>
<div> Nearly every organic
chemical can be coaxed from
living material. Don't even
get me started on the chemical
refinery/production avenue.
I've said enough. I cannot do
much more or take time to
record what I've found out or
can find out without a break
in life somewhere. That is why
I don't contribute much
anymore to these lists. It
gets me all excited, and then
frustration sets in. I have 3
kids to raise and cannot waste
my time playing with the
future of mankind when I need
food stamps. </div>
<div> Enough said. </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> Ok , do I have
anybodies attention now??? </div>
<div> I have to get off the
computer so my Son can do his
homework, Sorry, no time for
editing or additional info
tonight. </div>
<div> </div>
<div> Dan Dimiduk </div>
<div> Shangri- La Research. </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>In a message dated
11/13/2013 7:41:16 AM Eastern
Standard Time, <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net"
target="_blank">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</a>
writes:</div>
<blockquote
style="BORDER-LEFT:blue 2px
solid;PADDING-LEFT:5px;MARGIN-LEFT:5px"><font
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:transparent" color="#000000" face="Arial">
<div><font face="Arial">Dear
RB</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">OK....
as discouraging as the
facts may be, the facts
are reality, and they
must be dealt with to
avoid future problems.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">1:
Can different species be
grown, that have higher
Mean Annual Increments
of growth?</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">2:
Can the woodlots be
managed better?</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">3:
Can cooking practises be
changed?</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">4:
Would more efficient
stoves help
significantly?</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">5:
Can other forms of fuel,
or other sources of
energy, be used to take
some of the pressure off
the woodlots?</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">6:
Would some form of
"Agroforestry" be
possible, to put the
land to a higher use,
with multi-cropping?</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">...etc...</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Most
people like to do things
the way they have always
been done. They can't
expect different results
if they do things the
same way they have
always done things in
the past. The cruel
facts are that if they
want different results,
then they will have to
find changes that are
acceptable to them, OR
choose to live with the
consequences of their
present practises. Those
seem to be the cruel
realities.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Best
wishes,</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Kevin</font></div>
<div> </div>
</font></blockquote>
</div>
<div> </div>
</font></div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
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Dr. A.D. Karve<br>
Trustee & Founder President, Appropriate Rural Technology
Institute (ARTI)<br>
<br>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a>
</pre>
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