<div dir="ltr">Dear Bob, <div><br></div><div>From personal experience most rural Kenyan's I have met are little concerned with outsiders expectations of how they should manage their natural resources and landscapes. As it is today, a large part woodfuel in Kenya (both commercial and domestic) is coming from farm forests or Trust land since the Govt. bans on harvesting plantations in the 1990's. (please see <a href="http://www.inforse.org/Case/Case-Kenya-Afforestation.php3">http://www.inforse.org/Case/Case-Kenya-Afforestation.php3</a> and <a href="http://www.acts.or.ke/dmdocuments/Acacia%20Pocketbook%20low%20res.pdf">http://www.acts.or.ke/dmdocuments/Acacia%20Pocketbook%20low%20res.pdf</a> and also <a href="http://worldagroforestry.org/newsroom/media_coverage/agroforestry-can-meet-charcoal-demand-kenya">http://worldagroforestry.org/newsroom/media_coverage/agroforestry-can-meet-charcoal-demand-kenya</a> and also the attached .pdf for some recent studies). </div>
<div><br></div><div>Tree's can be planted during the rainy season to minimize need for watering and can be grown as alley-crops or fence line windbreaks etc. and thus not overly compete for arable land. </div><div><br>
</div><div>My interest in this is from my understanding that by designing, manufacturing and selling cookstoves, ovens and kilns that make it easier and cheaper for people to burn trees, I have very strong vested interests and a responsibility to advocate and encourage positive woodfuel security measures. I know not everyone of my customers will be able to take part in the ''seed-to-ash'' cycle (please see below), but I am always thrilled when the early adapters do. And if we can help subsidize the cost of fuel for our customers, they hopefully can use the money saved to buy another model of stove from us. <br>
<br>Back to my question of the possible discussion of fuels at the ETHOS conference, is this something that is of interest to any of you? </div><div><br></div><div>The more I read about ETHOS the more I want to come to learn more! I have been sending quite a few stoves to the USA from Nbi. and I would love to meet some customers and do some M&E on how our North American clients use our jikos. </div>
<div><br></div><div>Thanks and any thoughts, critics and comments any of you have is always very instructive to me. </div><div><br></div><div>Teddy </div><div><br></div><div><img src="cid:ii_142a7cd2e133a617" alt="Inline image 1"></div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr">
<div><b>Cookswell Jikos</b><br><a href="http://www.cookswell.co.ke" target="_blank">www.cookswell.co.ke</a></div><div><a href="http://www.facebook.com/CookswellJikos" target="_blank">www.facebook.com/CookswellJikos</a></div>
<div><a href="http://www.kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com" target="_blank">www.kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com</a></div><div>Mobile: +254 700 380 009 <br></div><div>Mobile: +254 700 905 913</div><div>P.O. Box 1433, Nairobi 00606, Kenya</div>
<div><img src="https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-mFnK50B4oS8/UUrgJle8z9I/AAAAAAAAB_o/OUjLd7wrKPg/s133/Cookswell+Logo.PNG" width="71" height="96"><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><br><br></div></div></div>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 6:52 AM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:rbtvl@aol.com" target="_blank">rbtvl@aol.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<font color="black" size="3" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">
<div><font style="background-color:transparent">thanks Arnand</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div>I hope to come to Ethos but might be in Tanzania working.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>do you have any data on how much fuel you can grow at some maximum rate? </div>
<div> </div>
<div>My concern is that we can't expect poor rural people to focus their water gathering energies and land use on firewood production. Of course, if they can burn dried up corn plants and stuff like that it is all to the good. integrating growth of fuel and food is always a good idea.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>bob</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div></div>
<div style="font-size:10pt;font-family:arial,helvetica">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Anand Karve <<a href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com" target="_blank">adkarve@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Sent: Fri, Nov 29, 2013 10:40 pm<br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] ETHOS program growing firewood<br>
<br>
<div>
<div>Dear Bob Lange and Stovers,</div>
<div>I am a plant physiologist. I won't mind attending Ethos Meeting if somebody pays me my air fare and local expenses.</div>
<div>The high energy in seeds and tubers that you mention has nothing to do with the physical calorific value of these substances. They have a high content of digestible matter so that the energy becomes available to you, when you eat them. Burning sugar, starch, cellulose or lignin would release about the same quantity of energy per unit weight. Because cellulose and lignin are not digestible to humans, the straw and stover from crop plants, constituting about 60 to 70% of the total biomass, is available to the farmer to be used as fuel. It must however be processed to increase its energy density to resemble that of wood.</div>
<div>Yours</div>
<div>A.D.Karve</div>
<div> </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 5:09 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:rbtvl@aol.com" target="_blank">rbtvl@aol.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"><font color="black" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="3">
<div><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" style="background-color:transparent">I think we should invite a plant physiologist to come to ETHOS to explain why we should not focus on getting people to grow their own fuel. Plants are living things. In the first place they are not very efficient at all in catching the energy in sun light. But what they do catch they put mostly into metabolism and reproduction. Like us animals. That is why we eat seeds. They are loaded with energy that the plant put there for their young to use until the little ones can photosynthesize for themselves. Mammals use the mother's milk Plants use their seeds. (Some animals, not mammals, use eggs for reproduction. So we eat eggs.)</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" style="background-color:transparent"></font> </div>
<div>If you are rural and poor and have a little land and sufficient water, you will almost certainly want to grow food itself rather than fire wood. no? Fire wood is very demanding of land area. You can be clever and minimize it. This species that species. but it is land expensive. Because the part of the plant you burn for fuel is not important to the plant, except to support its leaves. so the plant puts minimal energy there.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>If growing fuel wood is going to be taken seriously, it should be a government task. Local or national government. Centralize it. Do it big and well on land that individual families don't need to grow food itself. do it on land that is difficult to use for other things. On the sides of hills. someplace useless. someplace rocky. Make it a campaign in the Global Alliance's "enabling environment".</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Funny, but the problem is that people cook so much. What we need are more species of plants and animals that produce parts that we could find nourishing and tasty and desirable without cooking at all. Damn it. Why do we have to heat up food so much? Maybe soak the food in some liquid like fruit juice or spices some natural acid for all day and then serve it. I know cooking has a very significant role in make food culturally and physiologically acceptable. But If only we could find more foods that were good for us, culturally and physiologically, but eaten raw. That would be real stove progress. I personally like to eat almost all vegetables raw. even beans and corn. I don't know if I am throwing away a lot of their nutrition, though.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Bob Lange Maasai stoves and solar.</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
</font><br>
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</blockquote></div>
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Trustee & Founder President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)<br>
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<div style="font-size:12px;font-family:Tahoma,Verdana,Arial,sans-serif;margin:0px">
<pre style="font-size:9pt"><tt>_______________________________________________
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</tt></pre>
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<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><b>Cookswell Jikos</b><br><a href="http://www.cookswell.co.ke" target="_blank">www.cookswell.co.ke</a></div><div><a href="http://www.facebook.com/CookswellJikos" target="_blank">www.facebook.com/CookswellJikos</a></div>
<div><a href="http://www.kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com" target="_blank">www.kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com</a></div><div>Mobile: +254 700 380 009 <br></div><div>Mobile: +254 700 905 913</div><div>P.O. Box 1433, Nairobi 00606, Kenya</div>
<div><img src="https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-mFnK50B4oS8/UUrgJle8z9I/AAAAAAAAB_o/OUjLd7wrKPg/s133/Cookswell+Logo.PNG" width="71" height="96"><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><br><br></div></div></div>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 6:52 AM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:rbtvl@aol.com" target="_blank">rbtvl@aol.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<font color="black" size="3" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">
<div><font style="background-color:transparent">thanks Arnand</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div>I hope to come to Ethos but might be in Tanzania working.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>do you have any data on how much fuel you can grow at some maximum rate? </div>
<div> </div>
<div>My concern is that we can't expect poor rural people to focus their water gathering energies and land use on firewood production. Of course, if they can burn dried up corn plants and stuff like that it is all to the good. integrating growth of fuel and food is always a good idea.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>bob</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div></div>
<div style="font-size:10pt;font-family:arial,helvetica">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Anand Karve <<a href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com" target="_blank">adkarve@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Sent: Fri, Nov 29, 2013 10:40 pm<br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] ETHOS program growing firewood<br>
<br>
<div>
<div>Dear Bob Lange and Stovers,</div>
<div>I am a plant physiologist. I won't mind attending Ethos Meeting if somebody pays me my air fare and local expenses.</div>
<div>The high energy in seeds and tubers that you mention has nothing to do with the physical calorific value of these substances. They have a high content of digestible matter so that the energy becomes available to you, when you eat them. Burning sugar, starch, cellulose or lignin would release about the same quantity of energy per unit weight. Because cellulose and lignin are not digestible to humans, the straw and stover from crop plants, constituting about 60 to 70% of the total biomass, is available to the farmer to be used as fuel. It must however be processed to increase its energy density to resemble that of wood.</div>
<div>Yours</div>
<div>A.D.Karve</div>
<div> </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 5:09 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:rbtvl@aol.com" target="_blank">rbtvl@aol.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"><font color="black" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="3">
<div><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" style="background-color:transparent">I think we should invite a plant physiologist to come to ETHOS to explain why we should not focus on getting people to grow their own fuel. Plants are living things. In the first place they are not very efficient at all in catching the energy in sun light. But what they do catch they put mostly into metabolism and reproduction. Like us animals. That is why we eat seeds. They are loaded with energy that the plant put there for their young to use until the little ones can photosynthesize for themselves. Mammals use the mother's milk Plants use their seeds. (Some animals, not mammals, use eggs for reproduction. So we eat eggs.)</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" style="background-color:transparent"></font> </div>
<div>If you are rural and poor and have a little land and sufficient water, you will almost certainly want to grow food itself rather than fire wood. no? Fire wood is very demanding of land area. You can be clever and minimize it. This species that species. but it is land expensive. Because the part of the plant you burn for fuel is not important to the plant, except to support its leaves. so the plant puts minimal energy there.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>If growing fuel wood is going to be taken seriously, it should be a government task. Local or national government. Centralize it. Do it big and well on land that individual families don't need to grow food itself. do it on land that is difficult to use for other things. On the sides of hills. someplace useless. someplace rocky. Make it a campaign in the Global Alliance's "enabling environment".</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Funny, but the problem is that people cook so much. What we need are more species of plants and animals that produce parts that we could find nourishing and tasty and desirable without cooking at all. Damn it. Why do we have to heat up food so much? Maybe soak the food in some liquid like fruit juice or spices some natural acid for all day and then serve it. I know cooking has a very significant role in make food culturally and physiologically acceptable. But If only we could find more foods that were good for us, culturally and physiologically, but eaten raw. That would be real stove progress. I personally like to eat almost all vegetables raw. even beans and corn. I don't know if I am throwing away a lot of their nutrition, though.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Bob Lange Maasai stoves and solar.</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
</font><br>
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for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>
<a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
***<br>
Dr. A.D. Karve<br>
Trustee & Founder President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)<br>
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-size:12px;font-family:Tahoma,Verdana,Arial,Sans-Serif;margin:0px">
<pre style="font-size:9pt"><tt>_______________________________________________
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for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
<a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a>
</tt></pre>
</div>
</div>
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<br></blockquote></div><br></div>