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<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica; COLOR: black">Hi Ron</SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; BACKGROUND: white"><I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica; COLOR: black">See replies below</SPAN></I></DIV>
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<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica; COLOR: black">Roger: </SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica; COLOR: black"> Very nice job on reporting the evolution of the No-Flay. I see some very clever design features there - and a very nice cost ($10). I look forward to hearing of your upcoming more detailed test results.</SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica; COLOR: black"> Some nit picking questions:</SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica; COLOR: black"> 1. You are recommending a 1.5 cm gap from outer unfired wall to pot. I think Dean Still would recommend maybe half that. Any specific reason for 1.5 cm?</SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; BACKGROUND: white"><I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica; COLOR: black">We found 1.5 cm worked nicely with the typical 34 cm (14”) large pots (cooking for 14 in the household on average). The gap has to be sized to the combustion air flow you require. A bigger heat demand requires a bigger gap. Also from a practical standpoint a 1.5 cm was a gap the masons could work with, a smaller gap would cause installation issues. </SPAN></I></DIV>
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<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 33pt; BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica; COLOR: black" lang=FR-CA><SPAN>2.<SPAN style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica; COLOR: black">How do you support the pot above the three fired brick stack? Spacing also 1.5 cm</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica; COLOR: black" lang=FR-CA>? Or more?</SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 12.75pt; BACKGROUND: white"><I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica; COLOR: black">Yes we just cut the aluminum pot legs with a hacksaw to leave about a 1.5-2cm stub on the legs</SPAN></I></DIV>
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<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 33pt; BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica; COLOR: black"><SPAN>3.<SPAN style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica; COLOR: black">What are the range of pot diameters you can accommodate? Has any family bought 2 for different pot sizes for types of food?</SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 12.75pt; BACKGROUND: white"><I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica; COLOR: black">Our experience to date is the stove can accommodate pots from about 30 cm -60cm but we haven’t gone bigger yet. <SPAN> </SPAN>In Senegal and Gambia most users want a 5 brick layer high stove for rice and millet cooking and a 4 brick layer high sauce pan stove</SPAN></I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica; COLOR: black">. <I>At McGill University a student is working to develop a bigger prototype for parboiling rice.</I> </SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica; COLOR: black"> 4. I can understand the recommendation for outside cooking, but also see the no-flay as working indoors for some cultures. One objection I had once was taking up space. Any use of your no-flays indoors? The outdoor use any problem with rainfall on the unfired bricks?</SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; BACKGROUND: white"><I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica; COLOR: black">We started installing indoors and it was the communities that decided to build the stove outdoors once they realized they could cook outdoors under windy conditions with the double wall design. They never could do that before safely or efficiently with a 3 stone fire. <SPAN> </SPAN>To protect from rain most just put up a slanted sheet of tin and two wooden supports against an existing kitchen wall. <SPAN> </SPAN></SPAN></I></DIV>
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<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica; COLOR: black"> 5. I am unaware of any other stove with internal support using the fired bricks. Nice concept. I like there are three, not four inside. The 20 cm height for three could be varied a little for different size pots and flames? The fired bricks seem to cost 10 cents each, and the unfired at a little less than half that. Could the fired bricks be supplied in rounded arc shapes similarly? (Trying to move towards a TLUD version of same - needing a total enclosure.)</SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; BACKGROUND: white"><I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica; COLOR: black">We use 4 centre bricks on the bigger stoves in a diamond like pattern to support bigger pots. The 20 cm height is really a function of the brick thickness to save on materials. We could go higher, but it’s also the height they are used to cooking at so very user friendly. We went with smooth sided bricks because they are easier to pack and less breakage in transport. </SPAN></I></DIV>
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<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica; COLOR: black"> 6. A TLUD all-clay, local construction version (to obtain char) seems doable - but would need drop down (removable) metal fuel containers. I hope some reader can report they tried it. Maybe later I will. Getting rid of metal is great. I think with wider fired bricks you might not need any outer layer, although that does provide some nice preheating.</SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; BACKGROUND: white"><I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica; COLOR: black">Paul Anderson and I discussed this as a hybrid stove concept in Seattle, you use the TLUD insert and place it inside the fired bricks when you have the TLUD fuel and remove it and cook with wood when you don’t. </SPAN></I></DIV>
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<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica; COLOR: black"> 7. Is it necessary to sell this at $5? I would think your fuel savings could easily justify the full $10 cost.</SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; BACKGROUND: white"><I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica; COLOR: black">Well it’s a new stove and this area is very poor in west africa. So if you can’t install stoves unless you discount it to launch it, you have to subsidize. Hopefully they will build it themselves locally and become wealthy enough to be able to afford to buy it without subsidy in the future. </SPAN></I></DIV>
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<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica; COLOR: black"> 8. Your cost pie-chart showed a “micro” transport cost. What is that?</SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; BACKGROUND: white"><I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica; COLOR: black">That’s brick redistribution costs in the community. So we bring bricks by truck or tractor wagon to a community but you have to donkey cart it to each individual household so that’s our “micro” transport cost. </SPAN></I></DIV>
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<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica; COLOR: black">Again thanks for reporting on some very nice approaches. Best of luck on future sales.</SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; BACKGROUND: white"><I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica; COLOR: black">THANKS! </SPAN></I></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica; COLOR: black" lang=FR-CA>Ron</SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px"></DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Ronal W. Larson <rongretlarson@comcast.net><BR clear=none><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Roger Samson <rogerenroute@yahoo.ca>; Discussion of biomass <stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org> <BR clear=none><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, December 5, 2013 3:10:24 PM<BR clear=none><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [Stoves] NY Times article on what fuel poor need.<BR clear=none></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV>Roger: </DIV>
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<DIV> Very nice job on reporting the evolution of the No-Flay. I see some very clever design features there - and a very nice cost ($10). I look forward to hearing of your upcoming more detailed test results.</DIV>
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<DIV> Some nit picking questions:</DIV>
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<DIV> 1. You are recommending a 1.5 cm gap from outer unfired wall to pot. I think Dean Still would recommend maybe half that. Any specific reason for 1.5 cm?</DIV>
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<DIV> 2. How do you support the pot above the three fired brick stack? Spacing also 1.5 cm? Or more?</DIV>
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<DIV> 3. What are the range of pot diameters you can accommodate? Has any family bought 2 for different pot sizes for types of food?</DIV>
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<DIV> 4. I can understand the recommendation for outside cooking, but also see the no-flay as working indoors for some cultures. One objection I had once was taking up space. Any use of your no-flays indoors? The outdoor use any problem with rainfall on the unfired bricks?</DIV>
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<DIV> 5. I am unaware of any other stove with internal support using the fired bricks. Nice concept. I like there are three, not four inside. The 20 cm height for three could be varied a little for different size pots and flames? The fired bricks seem to cost 10 cents each, and the unfired at a little less than half that. Could the fired bricks be supplied in rounded arc shapes similarly? (Trying to move towards a TLUD version of same - needing a total enclosure.)</DIV>
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<DIV> 6. A TLUD all-clay, local construction version (to obtain char) seems doable - but would need drop down (removable) metal fuel containers. I hope some reader can report they tried it. Maybe later I will. Getting rid of metal is great. I think with wider fired bricks you might not need any outer layer, although that does provide some nice preheating.</DIV>
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<DIV> 7. Is it necessary to sell this at $5? I would think your fuel savings could easily justify the full $10 cost.</DIV>
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<DIV> 8. Your cost pie-chart showed a “micro” transport cost. What is that?</DIV>
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<DIV>Again thanks for reporting on some very nice approaches. Best of luck on future sales.</DIV>
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<DIV>Ron</DIV>
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<DIV>On Dec 5, 2013, at 11:07 AM, Roger Samson <<A href="mailto:rogerenroute@yahoo.ca" shape=rect rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:rogerenroute@yahoo.ca">rogerenroute@yahoo.ca</A>> wrote:</DIV><BR clear=none>
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<DIV style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN>The best way to identify the cooking needs of poor people is to ask them after spending considerable time with them in the field to understand their situation (ie to understand the cooking problem intimately and then brainstorm solutions together)</SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN>This supposition that we have to cook indoors in much of the developing world is something that should be debated widely. In the western world we don't warm up our cars for extended periods in our house as we all agree this is poor for our health. Can we all recognize that it is a much better idea to run combustion appliances for cooking in an outdoor environment(especially in the tropics). </SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN>The poor affordability and replicability of "high tech" stoves and fuels is a serious development barrier. Cooking outdoors (especially in rural areas) with appropriate local and low cost improved stoves and fuels is the most sustainable approach to address the health impacts of cooking. We need to combine improved cookstoves with a cooking environment that does not have stagnant air (ie one that recycles particulates or doesn't allow for particle dispersion). Cooking outdoors in rural areas has no ambient air impacts on communities so let's just do it. We are promoting this concept in west africa with the REAP clay brick stove known locally as the Noflay or "no problem" stove in the region. </SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN>The health impact is a function of the technology x cooking time x environment in which the cooking is performed. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN>We can express it in an equation form as H=T (technology) xT (time of exposure) x E(environment) in which the cooking is performed. </SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px"></DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Ronal W. Larson <<A href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" shape=rect rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</A>><BR clear=none><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Discussion of biomass <<A href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" shape=rect rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>> <BR clear=none><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, December 5, 2013 11:55:31 AM<BR clear=none><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [Stoves] NY Times article on what fuel poor need.<BR clear=none></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV>Rogerio etal</DIV>
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<DIV> Brazil is going to be leading the way on biofuels of all types. In addition to ethanol (from sugar cane?), there are numerous plant species producing oily seeds that can be pressed. From time to time we have had seed oil proponents on this list. We have had several for ethanol stoves</DIV>
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<DIV> I had in mind also the use of all sorts of liquid fuels that can be produced from pyrolysis - with a biochar co-product, so we can accomplish some CDR (carbon dioxide removal).</DIV>
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<DIV> Liquid fuels can burn very cleanly and are nicely controllable.</DIV>
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<DIV>Ron</DIV>
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<DIV>On Dec 5, 2013, at 8:51 AM, Rogerio carneiro de miranda <<A href="mailto:carneirodemiranda@gmail.com" shape=rect rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:carneirodemiranda@gmail.com">carneirodemiranda@gmail.com</A>> wrote:</DIV><BR clear=none>
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<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: large">Agreeing with Ron. </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: large">Liquid biofuels, and specially ethanol can be an alternative cooking and lighting fuel, either produced at large scale or at the community level with micro-distilleries.</DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: large">Project Gaia have demonstrated to me an efficient ethanol cookstove and also an ethanol lamp, and I have seeing here ethanol power generators in operation.</DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: large">Here in Brazil ethanol produced at farm level can be around US$ 0,50 per liter</DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: large">Rogério</DIV>
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<DIV>2013/12/4 Ronal W. Larson <SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" shape=rect rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</A>></SPAN><BR clear=none>
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<DIV style="WORD-WRAP: break-word">Nari and list:
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<DIV> 1. I write to disagree with your conclusion on fossil fuels. They are “best” (in several senses, not including being cheaper) mainly because their externality costs are borne by all of society.</DIV>
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<DIV> 2. I was surprised at first to see this view attributed to the NY Times. This was the view of Bjorne Lomborg who claims not to be a climate skeptic - but sure writes like one.</DIV>
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<DIV> 3. I do agree that kerosene has many advantages to go with their disadvantages. A way to move to a majority of advantages is to call for liquid fuels rather than fossil fuels. These can have a biomass origin, and (especially in rural areas) can also be cheaper.</DIV>
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<DIV>Ron</DIV>
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<DIV>On Dec 4, 2013, at 6:23 PM, nari phaltan <<A href="mailto:nariphaltan@gmail.com" shape=rect rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nariphaltan@gmail.com">nariphaltan@gmail.com</A>> wrote:</DIV><BR clear=none></DIV></DIV>
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<DIV style="COLOR: rgb(7,55,99); FONT-SIZE: large">Hi stovers,</DIV>
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<DIV style="COLOR: rgb(7,55,99); FONT-SIZE: large">A recent NYT article echoes what we have observed while working with rural poor in India - they need excellent and convenient fuel for cooking and lighting. Sometimes fossil fuels are the best. <A href="http://www.nariphaltan.org/kerosene.pdf" shape=rect rel=nofollow target=_blank>www.nariphaltan.org/kerosene.pdf</A> </DIV>
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<DIV style="COLOR: rgb(7,55,99); FONT-SIZE: large">Here is the NYT article; <A style="FONT-SIZE: small" href="http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/04/opinion/the-poor-need-cheap-fossil-fuels.html?hp&rref=opinion" shape=rect rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/04/opinion/the-poor-need-cheap-fossil-fuels.html?hp&rref=opinion<BR clear=none></A><SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(34,34,34); FONT-SIZE: small"><BR clear=none></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV style="COLOR: rgb(7,55,99); FONT-SIZE: large"><SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(34,34,34); FONT-SIZE: small">Cheers.</SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV style="COLOR: rgb(7,55,99); FONT-SIZE: large"><SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(34,34,34); FONT-SIZE: small">Anil</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV style="COLOR: rgb(7,55,99); FONT-SIZE: large"><SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(34,34,34); FONT-SIZE: small"> </SPAN></DIV>Nimbkar Agricultural Research Institute (NARI)<BR clear=none>Tambmal, Phaltan-Lonand Road<BR clear=none>P.O.Box 44<BR clear=none>Phaltan-415523, Maharashtra, India<BR clear=none>Ph:91-2166-222396/220945/222842<BR clear=none><A href="mailto:e-mail%3Anariphaltan@gmail.com" shape=rect rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:e-mail%3Anariphaltan@gmail.com">mailto:e-mail%3Anariphaltan@gmail.com</A><BR clear=none> <A href="mailto:nariphaltan@nariphaltan.org" shape=rect rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nariphaltan@nariphaltan.org">nariphaltan@nariphaltan.org</A><BR clear=none><BR clear=none><A href="http://www.nariphaltan.org/" shape=rect rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.nariphaltan.org/</A><BR clear=none></DIV></DIV></DIV>_______________________________________________<BR
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