<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><div style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto"></SPAN> </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px; RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">The best way to identify the cooking needs of poor people is to ask them after spending considerable time with them in the field to understand their situation (ie to understand the cooking problem intimately and then brainstorm solutions together)</SPAN></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px; RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto"></SPAN> </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px; RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">This supposition that we have to cook indoors in much of the developing world is something that should be debated widely. In the western world we don't warm up our cars for extended periods in our house as we all agree this is poor for our health. Can we all recognize that it is a much better idea to run combustion appliances for cooking in an outdoor environment(especially in the tropics). </SPAN></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px; RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto"></SPAN> </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px; RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto"></SPAN> </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px; RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">The poor affordability and replicability of "high tech" stoves and fuels is a serious development barrier. Cooking outdoors (especially in rural areas) with appropriate local and low cost improved stoves and fuels is the most sustainable approach to address the health impacts of cooking. We need to combine improved cookstoves with a cooking environment that does not have stagnant air (ie one that recycles particulates or doesn't allow for particle dispersion). Cooking outdoors in rural areas has no ambient air impacts on communities so let's just do it. We are promoting this concept in west africa with the REAP clay brick stove known locally as the Noflay or "no problem" stove in the region.
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<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px; RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto"></SPAN> </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px; RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">The health impact is a function of the technology x cooking time x environment in which the cooking is performed. </SPAN></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px; RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">We can express it in an equation form as H=T (technology) xT (time of exposure) x E(environment) in which the cooking is performed. </SPAN></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px; RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto"></SPAN> </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px; RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto"></SPAN> </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px; RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">All the best</SPAN></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px; RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto"></SPAN> </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px; RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">Roger Samson</SPAN></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px; RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">REAP-Canada</SPAN></div>
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<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px; RIGHT: auto"><BR style="RIGHT: auto"></div>
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<DIV style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px" class=hr contentEditable=false readonly="true"></DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Ronal W. Larson <rongretlarson@comcast.net><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Discussion of biomass <stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org> <BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, December 5, 2013 11:55:31 AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [Stoves] NY Times article on what fuel poor need.<BR></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV>Rogerio etal</DIV>
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<DIV> Brazil is going to be leading the way on biofuels of all types. In addition to ethanol (from sugar cane?), there are numerous plant species producing oily seeds that can be pressed. From time to time we have had seed oil proponents on this list. We have had several for ethanol stoves</DIV>
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<DIV> I had in mind also the use of all sorts of liquid fuels that can be produced from pyrolysis - with a biochar co-product, so we can accomplish some CDR (carbon dioxide removal).</DIV>
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<DIV> Liquid fuels can burn very cleanly and are nicely controllable.</DIV>
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<DIV>Ron</DIV>
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<DIV>On Dec 5, 2013, at 8:51 AM, Rogerio carneiro de miranda <<A href="mailto:carneirodemiranda@gmail.com" shape=rect rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:carneirodemiranda@gmail.com">carneirodemiranda@gmail.com</A>> wrote:</DIV><BR class=yiv3648890938Apple-interchange-newline clear=none>
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<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: large" class=yiv3648890938gmail_default>Agreeing with Ron. </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: large" class=yiv3648890938gmail_default>Liquid biofuels, and specially ethanol can be an alternative cooking and lighting fuel, either produced at large scale or at the community level with micro-distilleries.</DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: large" class=yiv3648890938gmail_default>Project Gaia have demonstrated to me an efficient ethanol cookstove and also an ethanol lamp, and I have seeing here ethanol power generators in operation.</DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: large" class=yiv3648890938gmail_default>Here in Brazil ethanol produced at farm level can be around US$ 0,50 per liter</DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: large" class=yiv3648890938gmail_default>Rogério</DIV>
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<DIV class=yiv3648890938gmail_quote>2013/12/4 Ronal W. Larson <SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" shape=rect rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</A>></SPAN><BR clear=none>
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<DIV style="WORD-WRAP: break-word">Nari and list:
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<DIV> 1. I write to disagree with your conclusion on fossil fuels. They are “best” (in several senses, not including being cheaper) mainly because their externality costs are borne by all of society.</DIV>
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<DIV> 2. I was surprised at first to see this view attributed to the NY Times. This was the view of Bjorne Lomborg who claims not to be a climate skeptic - but sure writes like one.</DIV>
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<DIV> 3. I do agree that kerosene has many advantages to go with their disadvantages. A way to move to a majority of advantages is to call for liquid fuels rather than fossil fuels. These can have a biomass origin, and (especially in rural areas) can also be cheaper.</DIV>
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<DIV>Ron</DIV>
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<DIV>On Dec 4, 2013, at 6:23 PM, nari phaltan <<A href="mailto:nariphaltan@gmail.com" shape=rect rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nariphaltan@gmail.com">nariphaltan@gmail.com</A>> wrote:</DIV><BR clear=none></DIV></DIV>
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<DIV style="COLOR: rgb(7,55,99); FONT-SIZE: large">Hi stovers,</DIV>
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<DIV style="COLOR: rgb(7,55,99); FONT-SIZE: large">A recent NYT article echoes what we have observed while working with rural poor in India - they need excellent and convenient fuel for cooking and lighting. Sometimes fossil fuels are the best. <A href="http://www.nariphaltan.org/kerosene.pdf" shape=rect rel=nofollow target=_blank>www.nariphaltan.org/kerosene.pdf</A> </DIV>
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<DIV style="COLOR: rgb(7,55,99); FONT-SIZE: large">Here is the NYT article; <A style="FONT-SIZE: small" href="http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/04/opinion/the-poor-need-cheap-fossil-fuels.html?hp&rref=opinion" shape=rect rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/04/opinion/the-poor-need-cheap-fossil-fuels.html?hp&rref=opinion<BR clear=none></A><SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(34,34,34); FONT-SIZE: small"><BR clear=none></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV style="COLOR: rgb(7,55,99); FONT-SIZE: large"><SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(34,34,34); FONT-SIZE: small">Cheers.</SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV style="COLOR: rgb(7,55,99); FONT-SIZE: large"><SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(34,34,34); FONT-SIZE: small">Anil</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV style="COLOR: rgb(7,55,99); FONT-SIZE: large"><SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(34,34,34); FONT-SIZE: small"> </SPAN></DIV>Nimbkar Agricultural Research Institute (NARI)<BR clear=none>Tambmal, Phaltan-Lonand Road<BR clear=none>P.O.Box 44<BR clear=none>Phaltan-415523, Maharashtra, India<BR clear=none>Ph:91-2166-222396/220945/222842<BR clear=none><A href="mailto:e-mail%3Anariphaltan@gmail.com" shape=rect rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:e-mail%3Anariphaltan@gmail.com">mailto:e-mail%3Anariphaltan@gmail.com</A><BR clear=none> <A href="mailto:nariphaltan@nariphaltan.org" shape=rect rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nariphaltan@nariphaltan.org">nariphaltan@nariphaltan.org</A><BR clear=none><BR clear=none><A href="http://www.nariphaltan.org/" shape=rect rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.nariphaltan.org/</A><BR clear=none></DIV></DIV></DIV>_______________________________________________<BR
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