<html>
<head>
<style><!--
.hmmessage P
{
margin:0px;
padding:0px
}
body.hmmessage
{
font-size: 12pt;
font-family:Calibri
}
--></style></head>
<body class='hmmessage'><div dir='ltr'>Dear Anh and JF Rozis,<BR>Stovers<BR> <BR>I very much agree about Your approach to reach out to low Income families in Vietnam and Cambodia.........even France.....<BR> <BR>The production of charcoal (in Africa) is one solid prove, that desentralized production WORKS and sometimes, to my knowledge, too "WELL", see Haiti. <BR> <BR>Production of woodchips and pellets, can even use the same consept for production of charcoal, based on local resources and people linked to mobile units.<BR>Instead of bringing the rawmaterials to the mill, bring the mill and the woodchipper to the source.<BR> <BR>The finished products will generate Income, likewise the charcoal production and easily adopt the same transportation systems used by the charcoal traders of today.<BR> <BR>I prefer, one thousand small scale entrepeneurs, than ONE Big one.<BR>If one fail, another will take over and make sure production is up to demand and prices likewise.<BR><strong><em><font face="Arial" size="2" style="background-color: rgb(249, 249, 249);"></font></em></strong> <BR><strong><em><font face="Arial" size="2" style="background-color: rgb(249, 249, 249);">"I Like a Little Competition"—J. P. Morgan,</font></em><span style="font: 11px/15.82px sans-serif; text-align: left; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); text-transform: none; text-indent: 0px; letter-spacing: normal; word-spacing: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important; white-space: normal; background-color: rgb(249, 249, 249); -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> the answer given</span></span><span style="font: 11px/15.82px sans-serif; text-align: left; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); text-transform: none; text-indent: 0px; letter-spacing: normal; word-spacing: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important; white-space: normal; background-color: rgb(249, 249, 249); -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"> when asked whether he disliked competition at the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></strong><a title="Pujo Committee" style="font: 11px/15.82px sans-serif; text-align: left; color: rgb(11, 0, 128); text-transform: none; text-indent: 0px; letter-spacing: normal; text-decoration: none; word-spacing: 0px; white-space: normal; background-image: none; background-color: rgb(249, 249, 249); -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pujo_Committee"><strong>Pujo Committee</strong></a><span style="font: 11px/15.82px sans-serif; text-align: left; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); text-transform: none; text-indent: 0px; letter-spacing: normal; word-spacing: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important; white-space: normal; background-color: rgb(249, 249, 249); -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><strong>.</strong></span><BR><span style="font: 11px/15.82px sans-serif; text-align: left; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); text-transform: none; text-indent: 0px; letter-spacing: normal; word-spacing: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important; white-space: normal; background-color: rgb(249, 249, 249); -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><font face="Calibri" size="3"></font></span> <BR><span style="font: 11px/15.82px sans-serif; text-align: left; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); text-transform: none; text-indent: 0px; letter-spacing: normal; word-spacing: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important; white-space: normal; background-color: rgb(249, 249, 249); -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><font face="Calibri" size="3">Competition, gentlemen, has never harmed anybody, Monopoly DOES. </font></span><BR><span style="font: 11px/15.82px sans-serif; text-align: left; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); text-transform: none; text-indent: 0px; letter-spacing: normal; word-spacing: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important; white-space: normal; background-color: rgb(249, 249, 249); -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"></span> <BR>Lets go for the desentralized production line in 2014.<BR> <BR>Otto<BR> <BR><br> <BR><div>> From: ntanh@greengenvn.com<br>> To: stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>> Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2014 17:54:59 +0700<br>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Stoves Digest, Vol 41, Issue 1<br>> <br>> Dear All,<br>> <br>> I am Anh from Vietnam, I am new in here, been reading for a while and this<br>> is my first reply.<br>> <br>> We are a new start up, private social business in Vietnam making improved<br>> cook stoves and decentralization is what we are trying to do. The plan is to<br>> make parts in Hanoi, capital of Vietnam, and ship out to other provinces and<br>> set up assemblers shop there at local households to put the part together<br>> and distribute in their area. If this work, with consumption of ~300<br>> stoves/month we can shift 1 job from city to rural area where the job<br>> definitely have higher value. Also for the business, we can save tons of<br>> costs such as workshop, warehouse, transportation,... and have replacement<br>> parts stored much closer to consumers. Til now, we are close to get the<br>> first assembler up, there's still a lot of issues but hope it will work out<br>> fine. <br>> <br>> As for fuels, we had plan for a facility making biomass briquettes/pellets<br>> too but had to cancel it due to the difficulties in securing raw material<br>> supply. As biomass come from all around and many come in by season (rice<br>> harvest only happen twice a year to have straw), its very hard and costly to<br>> collect and store the biomass for production all year. One of our project is<br>> to equip multiple small scale briquetting machines to local people, teach<br>> them how to produce and purchase all of their output.<br>> <br>> Decentralize has many issues in quality, training, production safety,...<br>> that much harder to control but sometimes it is the only way that can work<br>> the economic.<br>> <br>> So I guess the absolute answer for Centralization or Decentralization must<br>> depend on each case or we can just use mixed mode.<br>> <br>> Regards,<br>> <br>> Anh<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> -----Original Message-----<br>> From: Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of<br>> stoves-request@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>> Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2014 2:00 AM<br>> To: stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>> Subject: Stoves Digest, Vol 41, Issue 1<br>> <br>> Send Stoves mailing list submissions to<br>> stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>> <br>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br>> <br>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists<br>> .org<br>> <br>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br>> stoves-request@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>> <br>> You can reach the person managing the list at<br>> stoves-owner@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>> <br>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than<br>> "Re: Contents of Stoves digest..."<br>> <br>> <br>> Today's Topics:<br>> <br>> 1. Re: ETHOS Discussion about decentalized stove efforts<br>> (Paul Anderson)<br>> 2. Re: ETHOS / and in defence of Paal,: Glocally Networked<br>> Localised Initiaves ? "centralisation" or for that matter<br>> "decentralisation" (Richard Stanley)<br>> 3. Re: [Gasification] Chip Guillotine was Re: Wood heating in<br>> the UK - whole log gasification (Jeff Davis)<br>> 4. Re: ETHOS Discussion about decentalized stove efforts<br>> (Ben Blevins)<br>> 5. Re: ETHOS Discussion about decentalized stove efforts<br>> (Jonathan P Gill)<br>> 6. Re: ETHOS Discussion about decentalized stove efforts<br>> (Ronal W. Larson)<br>> 7. Re: [Gasification] Chip Guillotine was Re: Wood heating in<br>> the UK - whole log gasification (Ronal W. Larson)<br>> <br>> <br>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>> <br>> Message: 1<br>> Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 17:34:45 -0600<br>> From: Paul Anderson <psanders@ilstu.edu><br>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>> <stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] ETHOS Discussion about decentalized stove<br>> efforts<br>> Message-ID: <52C35495.1050609@ilstu.edu><br>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed<br>> <br>> Dear Paal, and all,<br>> <br>> As much as I can agree with Paal's statements, but I think the cards are<br>> stacked against the success of decentralized efforts.<br>> <br>> The issue that Paal raises about the need to have decentralized production<br>> of stoves (and fuels) is a touchy topic because the "model" <br>> of the affluent world is for centralized industrial production. That <br>> centralized model is certainly a cornerstone of the GACC and WB and many<br>> who feel that the model of the affluent world will work to resolve major<br>> issues in the developing world. And they control access to most of <br>> the funding. And they present very convincing arguments. (If they <br>> could not, they would not be in control of the situation.)<br>> <br>> It would be good to have some examples of decentralized efforts having <br>> major impacts. Maybe the spread of the Kenyan ceramic jiko (KCJ) is <br>> one example.<br>> <br>> I will be at ETHOS and willing for such discussions if others step forward<br>> wanting to discuss this informally as an ad hoc sub-group.<br>> <br>> Paul<br>> <br>> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD<br>> Email: psanders@ilstu.edu<br>> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072<br>> Website: www.drtlud.com<br>> <br>> On 12/31/2013 10:15 AM, paaw@online.no wrote:<br>> > On Tue, 31 Dec 2013 08:12:54 -0700,<br>> > stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org wrote:<br>> ><br>> >> Due to health and age it will not be possible for me to participate, but<br>> after 30 years working with task and followed the discussion at Stove list I<br>> have come to this conclusion.<br>> >><br>> >> There has to be a discussion at ETHOS about centralized or decentralized<br>> activities regarding fuel and stove production with a view on the enormous<br>> unemployment in developing countries. Taken into consideration the high<br>> demands of clean combustion, pellets will be the future biomass fuel for<br>> simple clean burning such as TLUD ND and FD. Energy forestry and agriculture<br>> energy production together collection of waste biomass of different types<br>> will give a lot of new needed jobs.<br>> >><br>> >> ? Registration of local waste combustible biomass.<br>> >><br>> >> ? Use of local resources<br>> >><br>> >> ? Biochar production by cooking.<br>> >><br>> >> That will be the best way for GACC Stove program to support the low <br>> >> income groups all around the worl<br>> >><br>> >> Best regards Paal Wendelbo paaw@online.no<br>> > _______________________________________________<br>> > Stoves mailing list<br>> ><br>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address <br>> > stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>> ><br>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page <br>> > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenerg<br>> > ylists.org<br>> ><br>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/<br>> ><br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> ------------------------------<br>> <br>> Message: 2<br>> Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 16:27:04 -0800<br>> From: Richard Stanley <rstanley@legacyfound.org><br>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>> <stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] ETHOS / and in defence of Paal,: Glocally<br>> Networked Localised Initiaves ? "centralisation" or for that matter<br>> "decentralisation"<br>> Message-ID: <C794ED54-C5DE-4350-A2CE-8B19972F1D2F@legacyfound.org><br>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1<br>> <br>> Paul, <br>> <br>> Hoping this gets through the filters of this group, you nicely describe the<br>> very philosophical differences I have with the centralize and mass produce<br>> movement at least for these technologies; We have had major success self<br>> sustaining success at that but by the very nature of it the centralized<br>> worlds access to it, such access tends to consume it to little beneficial<br>> end for the local producer/trainer. <br>> <br>> The whole idea of development surely cannot be to simply replicate our<br>> western industrialized model of development on the global community. It's a<br>> model that you in your own profession well know has serious distortions to<br>> the global economy given for example, our resource consumption patterns as<br>> against our proportion of the world's population, and the mere carbon<br>> footprint we make in trying to extoll the virtues of centralized mass<br>> production and distribution ---where such technologies as these can be<br>> managed at the local level. <br>> <br>> It's certainly agreed that pure localized one-off initiatives are labor<br>> intensive to say the least and so much is lost in the process, as the<br>> learning is not generally transferred by the trainees-trained as trainers,<br>> to emerging groups in their own area. <br>> <br>> To me, its is not about "centralization" but about localization of<br>> initiative and responsibility and localization of reward--globally. Its<br>> about functioning as a mechanic of the process, to encourage this to happen<br>> in such a way as to assure local responsibility and initiative. The process<br>> is monetised to assure self sustained participation . Everyone works at risk<br>> and reward and responsibility locally but the participants also learn to<br>> share their findings globally <br>> <br>> And for 2014 as initially suggested by many colleagues, we are bent on<br>> assembling an anthology on the subject by those who have been directly<br>> involved in it.<br>> <br>> Knowing we all share the same end goals, all the best to you and the other<br>> many good like minds for the new year. <br>> <br>> Richard Stanley<br>> www.legacyfound.org <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> =============<br>> On Dec 31, 2013, at 3:34 PM, Paul Anderson wrote:<br>> <br>> Dear ', and all,<br>> <br>> As much as I can agree with Paal's statements, but I think the cards are<br>> stacked against the success of decentralized efforts.<br>> <br>> The issue that Paal raises about the need to have decentralized production<br>> of stoves (and fuels) is a touchy topic because the "model" of the affluent<br>> world is for centralized industrial production. That centralized model is<br>> certainly a cornerstone of the GACC and WB and many who feel that the model<br>> of the affluent world will work to resolve major issues in the developing<br>> world. And they control access to most of the funding. And they present<br>> very convincing arguments. (If they could not, they would not be in<br>> control of the situation.)<br>> <br>> It would be good to have some examples of decentralized efforts having major<br>> impacts. Maybe the spread of the Kenyan ceramic jiko (KCJ) is one example.<br>> <br>> I will be at ETHOS and willing for such discussions if others step forward<br>> wanting to discuss this informally as an ad hoc sub-group.<br>> <br>> Paul<br>> <br>> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD<br>> Email: psanders@ilstu.edu<br>> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072<br>> Website: www.drtlud.com<br>> <br>> On 12/31/2013 10:15 AM, paaw@online.no wrote:<br>> > On Tue, 31 Dec 2013 08:12:54 -0700,<br>> > stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org wrote:<br>> > <br>> >> Due to health and age it will not be possible for me to participate, but<br>> after 30 years working with task and followed the discussion at Stove list I<br>> have come to this conclusion.<br>> >> <br>> >> There has to be a discussion at ETHOS about centralized or decentralized<br>> activities regarding fuel and stove production with a view on the enormous<br>> unemployment in developing countries. Taken into consideration the high<br>> demands of clean combustion, pellets will be the future biomass fuel for<br>> simple clean burning such as TLUD ND and FD. Energy forestry and agriculture<br>> energy production together collection of waste biomass of different types<br>> will give a lot of new needed jobs.<br>> >> <br>> >> ? Registration of local waste combustible biomass.<br>> >> <br>> >> ? Use of local resources<br>> >> <br>> >> ? Biochar production by cooking.<br>> >> <br>> >> That will be the best way for GACC Stove program to support the low <br>> >> income groups all around the worl<br>> >> <br>> >> Best regards Paal Wendelbo paaw@online.no<br>> > _______________________________________________<br>> > Stoves mailing list<br>> > <br>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address <br>> > stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>> > <br>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page <br>> > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenerg<br>> > ylists.org<br>> > <br>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/<br>> > <br>> <br>> <br>> _______________________________________________<br>> Stoves mailing list<br>> <br>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>> stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>> <br>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists<br>> .org<br>> <br>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> ------------------------------<br>> <br>> Message: 3<br>> Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 21:23:00 -0500<br>> From: Jeff Davis <jeffdavis0124@gmail.com><br>> To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification<br>> <gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org>, ajheggie@gmail.com,<br>> stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] [Gasification] Chip Guillotine was Re: Wood<br>> heating in the UK - whole log gasification<br>> Message-ID: <52C37C04.3080901@gmail.com><br>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed<br>> <br>> Hi AJH,<br>> <br>> Don't bother sending me anything. In time I'll find something and if need be<br>> I'll just flame cut a disc from flat plate. I checked out one of our local<br>> farm supply places looking for a flat disk blade but now that it's winter<br>> all of those types of things are gone or put away. <br>> Impossible to find anything outside with all this white stuff on the ground.<br>> Looks like I have enough scrap for the frame.<br>> <br>> <br>> Jeff<br>> <br>> <br>> On 12/31/2013 06:46 AM, ajheggie@gmail.com wrote:<br>> > [Default] On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 06:53:17 +1300,Doug <br>> > <Doug.Williams@orcon.net.nz> wrote:<br>> ><br>> >> Hi Jeff and Paul,<br>> >><br>> >> It's been a few years since I assembled this concept guillotine design<br>> into a drawing, and I emphasis concept. It was to show a principle of<br>> slicing the fibres as the force of the blade was applied with as much<br>> rotation of the blade possible. How the dimensions are determined can be<br>> proven using a cardboard mock-up and leaves plenty of room for innovation<br>> relating to the features you mention.<br>> ><br>> > We have chippers that use disc blades:<br>> ><br>> > http://www.greenmech.co.uk/greenmech-disc-blades/<br>> ><br>> > They are definitely not supposed to rotate in use but easy enough to <br>> > mount so they do, the diameter is much smaller than your design at <br>> > 100mm (4") diameter but they may make a simple entry for a 1/3 <br>> > dimension proof of concept.<br>> ><br>> > I have several but the postage may be prohibitive or I can ask a <br>> > machine shop here to assemble something given a few more dimensions.<br>> ><br>> > AJH<br>> ><br>> > _______________________________________________<br>> > Gasification mailing list<br>> ><br>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address <br>> > Gasification@bioenergylists.org<br>> ><br>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page <br>> > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bi<br>> > oenergylists.org<br>> ><br>> > for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site:<br>> > http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/<br>> ><br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> ------------------------------<br>> <br>> Message: 4<br>> Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 21:51:24 -0500<br>> From: Ben Blevins <hspben@yahoo.com><br>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>> <stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] ETHOS Discussion about decentalized stove<br>> efforts<br>> Message-ID: <3D34C06D-3EDE-4EFC-8DCC-9C47251F97B9@yahoo.com><br>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1<br>> <br>> Deloitte contractors suggested decentralized for various reasons, there<br>> consulting was rejected because the finding did not reinforce the message of<br>> mass production and distribution by development industry players.<br>> <br>> B<br>> <br>> <br>> On Dec 31, 2013, at 6:34 PM, Paul Anderson <psanders@ilstu.edu> wrote:<br>> <br>> > Dear Paal, and all,<br>> > <br>> > As much as I can agree with Paal's statements, but I think the cards are<br>> stacked against the success of decentralized efforts.<br>> > <br>> > The issue that Paal raises about the need to have decentralized production<br>> of stoves (and fuels) is a touchy topic because the "model" of the affluent<br>> world is for centralized industrial production. That centralized model is<br>> certainly a cornerstone of the GACC and WB and many who feel that the model<br>> of the affluent world will work to resolve major issues in the developing<br>> world. And they control access to most of the funding. And they present<br>> very convincing arguments. (If they could not, they would not be in<br>> control of the situation.)<br>> > <br>> > It would be good to have some examples of decentralized efforts having<br>> major impacts. Maybe the spread of the Kenyan ceramic jiko (KCJ) is one<br>> example.<br>> > <br>> > I will be at ETHOS and willing for such discussions if others step forward<br>> wanting to discuss this informally as an ad hoc sub-group.<br>> > <br>> > Paul<br>> > <br>> > Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD<br>> > Email: psanders@ilstu.edu<br>> > Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072<br>> > Website: www.drtlud.com<br>> > <br>> > On 12/31/2013 10:15 AM, paaw@online.no wrote:<br>> >> On Tue, 31 Dec 2013 08:12:54 -0700,<br>> >> stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org wrote:<br>> >> <br>> >>> Due to health and age it will not be possible for me to participate, but<br>> after 30 years working with task and followed the discussion at Stove list I<br>> have come to this conclusion.<br>> >>> <br>> >>> There has to be a discussion at ETHOS about centralized or decentralized<br>> activities regarding fuel and stove production with a view on the enormous<br>> unemployment in developing countries. Taken into consideration the high<br>> demands of clean combustion, pellets will be the future biomass fuel for<br>> simple clean burning such as TLUD ND and FD. Energy forestry and agriculture<br>> energy production together collection of waste biomass of different types<br>> will give a lot of new needed jobs.<br>> >>> <br>> >>> ? Registration of local waste combustible biomass.<br>> >>> <br>> >>> ? Use of local resources<br>> >>> <br>> >>> ? Biochar production by cooking.<br>> >>> <br>> >>> That will be the best way for GACC Stove program to support the low <br>> >>> income groups all around the worl<br>> >>> <br>> >>> Best regards Paal Wendelbo paaw@online.no<br>> >> _______________________________________________<br>> >> Stoves mailing list<br>> >> <br>> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address <br>> >> stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>> >> <br>> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page <br>> >> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioener<br>> >> gylists.org<br>> >> <br>> >> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>> >> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/<br>> >> <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > _______________________________________________<br>> > Stoves mailing list<br>> > <br>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address <br>> > stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>> > <br>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page <br>> > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenerg<br>> > ylists.org<br>> > <br>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/<br>> > <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> ------------------------------<br>> <br>> Message: 5<br>> Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2014 11:07:36 -0500<br>> From: Jonathan P Gill <jg45@icloud.com><br>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>> <stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] ETHOS Discussion about decentalized stove<br>> efforts<br>> Message-ID: <A76BEA01-723D-4E93-9B4D-9763644352B0@icloud.com><br>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>> <br>> I am with those who favor decentralization. The internet model is the proof<br>> of the pudding. The internet could never have been built by the centralized<br>> model!<br>> <br>> A key aspect of the decentralized model is that it is the most effective way<br>> to leverage the human and financial capital resources at the edges. These<br>> are far vaster in aggregate than anything the centralized model can arrange.<br>> The simple fact is that the problems being addressed require a level of<br>> resources that ONLY the decentralized internet model can deliver. The under<br>> resourced central model can only fail, as any badly under capitalized<br>> business knows.<br>> <br>> Best Wishes for a Distributed & Decentralized 2014.<br>> <br>> Jock<br>> <br>> Jock Gill<br>> P. O. Box 3<br>> Peacham, VT 05862<br>> <br>> google.com/+JockGill<br>> <br>> Extract CO2 from the atmosphere!<br>> <br>> > On Dec 31, 2013, at 9:51 PM, Ben Blevins <hspben@yahoo.com> wrote:<br>> > <br>> > Deloitte contractors suggested decentralized for various reasons, there<br>> consulting was rejected because the finding did not reinforce the message of<br>> mass production and distribution by development industry players.<br>> > <br>> > B<br>> > <br>> > <br>> >> On Dec 31, 2013, at 6:34 PM, Paul Anderson <psanders@ilstu.edu> wrote:<br>> >> <br>> >> Dear Paal, and all,<br>> >> <br>> >> As much as I can agree with Paal's statements, but I think the cards are<br>> stacked against the success of decentralized efforts.<br>> >> <br>> >> The issue that Paal raises about the need to have decentralized<br>> production of stoves (and fuels) is a touchy topic because the "model" of<br>> the affluent world is for centralized industrial production. That<br>> centralized model is certainly a cornerstone of the GACC and WB and many<br>> who feel that the model of the affluent world will work to resolve major<br>> issues in the developing world. And they control access to most of the<br>> funding. And they present very convincing arguments. (If they could not,<br>> they would not be in control of the situation.)<br>> >> <br>> >> It would be good to have some examples of decentralized efforts having<br>> major impacts. Maybe the spread of the Kenyan ceramic jiko (KCJ) is one<br>> example.<br>> >> <br>> >> I will be at ETHOS and willing for such discussions if others step<br>> forward wanting to discuss this informally as an ad hoc sub-group.<br>> >> <br>> >> Paul<br>> >> <br>> >> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD<br>> >> Email: psanders@ilstu.edu<br>> >> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072<br>> >> Website: www.drtlud.com<br>> >> <br>> >>> On 12/31/2013 10:15 AM, paaw@online.no wrote:<br>> >>> On Tue, 31 Dec 2013 08:12:54 -0700,<br>> >>> stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org wrote:<br>> >>> <br>> >>>> Due to health and age it will not be possible for me to participate,<br>> but after 30 years working with task and followed the discussion at Stove<br>> list I have come to this conclusion.<br>> >>>> <br>> >>>> There has to be a discussion at ETHOS about centralized or<br>> decentralized activities regarding fuel and stove production with a view on<br>> the enormous unemployment in developing countries. Taken into consideration<br>> the high demands of clean combustion, pellets will be the future biomass<br>> fuel for simple clean burning such as TLUD ND and FD. Energy forestry and<br>> agriculture energy production together collection of waste biomass of<br>> different types will give a lot of new needed jobs.<br>> >>>> <br>> >>>> ? Registration of local waste combustible biomass.<br>> >>>> <br>> >>>> ? Use of local resources<br>> >>>> <br>> >>>> ? Biochar production by cooking.<br>> >>>> <br>> >>>> That will be the best way for GACC Stove program to support the low <br>> >>>> income groups all around the worl<br>> >>>> <br>> >>>> Best regards Paal Wendelbo paaw@online.no<br>> >>> _______________________________________________<br>> >>> Stoves mailing list<br>> >>> <br>> >>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address <br>> >>> stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>> >>> <br>> >>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page <br>> >>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioene<br>> >>> rgylists.org<br>> >>> <br>> >>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>> >>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/<br>> >> <br>> >> <br>> >> _______________________________________________<br>> >> Stoves mailing list<br>> >> <br>> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address <br>> >> stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>> >> <br>> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page <br>> >> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioener<br>> >> gylists.org<br>> >> <br>> >> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>> >> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > _______________________________________________<br>> > Stoves mailing list<br>> > <br>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address <br>> > stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>> > <br>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page <br>> > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenerg<br>> > ylists.org<br>> > <br>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/<br>> > <br>> -------------- next part --------------<br>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>> URL:<br>> <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/a<br>> ttachments/20140101/18396466/attachment-0001.html><br>> <br>> ------------------------------<br>> <br>> Message: 6<br>> Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2014 10:10:08 -0700<br>> From: "Ronal W. Larson" <rongretlarson@comcast.net><br>> To: Discussion of biomass <stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] ETHOS Discussion about decentalized stove<br>> efforts<br>> Message-ID: <3D28008C-4B2A-4978-8922-2A38D1CABEC6@comcast.net><br>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>> <br>> Jock, Ben, List, etal<br>> <br>> 1. I suggest we are apt to see a mixed mode for stoves: centralized<br>> manufacture of key parts and decentralized assembly. This is the World<br>> Stove model (based on least cost principles - import duties, quality<br>> control, attractive design, added services, etc). I worked twice for a<br>> small local PV company in Zimbabwe, and this was their key - provided much<br>> better service for customers than any of their competitors, for small parts<br>> - not the panels.<br>> <br>> 2. Ben: Deloitte does good work. I found this one:<br>> http://dupress.com/articles/the-transformation-of-manufacturing/?id=us:em:na<br>> :dup633:read:dup:121713&elq=9ac6469b7bc34fb59a2f895ff968dc1e&elqCampaignId=1<br>> 164<br>> did you have a different cite?<br>> <br>> Ron<br>> <br>> <br>> On Jan 1, 2014, at 9:07 AM, Jonathan P Gill <jg45@icloud.com> wrote:<br>> <br>> > I am with those who favor decentralization. The internet model is the<br>> proof of the pudding. The internet could never have been built by the<br>> centralized model!<br>> > <br>> > A key aspect of the decentralized model is that it is the most effective<br>> way to leverage the human and financial capital resources at the edges.<br>> These are far vaster in aggregate than anything the centralized model can<br>> arrange. The simple fact is that the problems being addressed require a<br>> level of resources that ONLY the decentralized internet model can deliver.<br>> The under resourced central model can only fail, as any badly under<br>> capitalized business knows.<br>> > <br>> > Best Wishes for a Distributed & Decentralized 2014.<br>> > <br>> > Jock<br>> > <br>> > Jock Gill<br>> > P. O. Box 3<br>> > Peacham, VT 05862<br>> > <br>> > google.com/+JockGill<br>> > <br>> > Extract CO2 from the atmosphere!<br>> > <br>> > On Dec 31, 2013, at 9:51 PM, Ben Blevins <hspben@yahoo.com> wrote:<br>> > <br>> >> Deloitte contractors suggested decentralized for various reasons, there<br>> consulting was rejected because the finding did not reinforce the message of<br>> mass production and distribution by development industry players.<br>> >> <br>> >> B<br>> >> <br>> >> <br>> >> On Dec 31, 2013, at 6:34 PM, Paul Anderson <psanders@ilstu.edu> wrote:<br>> >> <br>> >>> Dear Paal, and all,<br>> >>> <br>> >>> As much as I can agree with Paal's statements, but I think the cards are<br>> stacked against the success of decentralized efforts.<br>> >>> <br>> >>> The issue that Paal raises about the need to have decentralized<br>> production of stoves (and fuels) is a touchy topic because the "model" of<br>> the affluent world is for centralized industrial production. That<br>> centralized model is certainly a cornerstone of the GACC and WB and many<br>> who feel that the model of the affluent world will work to resolve major<br>> issues in the developing world. And they control access to most of the<br>> funding. And they present very convincing arguments. (If they could not,<br>> they would not be in control of the situation.)<br>> >>> <br>> >>> It would be good to have some examples of decentralized efforts having<br>> major impacts. Maybe the spread of the Kenyan ceramic jiko (KCJ) is one<br>> example.<br>> >>> <br>> >>> I will be at ETHOS and willing for such discussions if others step<br>> forward wanting to discuss this informally as an ad hoc sub-group.<br>> >>> <br>> >>> Paul<br>> >>> <br>> >>> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD<br>> >>> Email: psanders@ilstu.edu<br>> >>> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072<br>> >>> Website: www.drtlud.com<br>> >>> <br>> >>> On 12/31/2013 10:15 AM, paaw@online.no wrote:<br>> >>>> On Tue, 31 Dec 2013 08:12:54 -0700, <br>> >>>> stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org wrote:<br>> >>>> <br>> >>>>> Due to health and age it will not be possible for me to participate,<br>> but after 30 years working with task and followed the discussion at Stove<br>> list I have come to this conclusion.<br>> >>>>> <br>> >>>>> There has to be a discussion at ETHOS about centralized or<br>> decentralized activities regarding fuel and stove production with a view on<br>> the enormous unemployment in developing countries. Taken into consideration<br>> the high demands of clean combustion, pellets will be the future biomass<br>> fuel for simple clean burning such as TLUD ND and FD. Energy forestry and<br>> agriculture energy production together collection of waste biomass of<br>> different types will give a lot of new needed jobs.<br>> >>>>> <br>> >>>>> ? Registration of local waste combustible biomass.<br>> >>>>> <br>> >>>>> ? Use of local resources<br>> >>>>> <br>> >>>>> ? Biochar production by cooking.<br>> >>>>> <br>> >>>>> That will be the best way for GACC Stove program to support the <br>> >>>>> low income groups all around the worl<br>> >>>>> <br>> >>>>> Best regards Paal Wendelbo paaw@online.no<br>> >>>> _______________________________________________<br>> >>>> Stoves mailing list<br>> >>>> <br>> >>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address <br>> >>>> stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>> >>>> <br>> >>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page <br>> >>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioen<br>> >>>> ergylists.org<br>> >>>> <br>> >>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web<br>> site:<br>> >>>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/<br>> >>>> <br>> >>> <br>> >>> <br>> >>> _______________________________________________<br>> >>> Stoves mailing list<br>> >>> <br>> >>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address <br>> >>> stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>> >>> <br>> >>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page <br>> >>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioene<br>> >>> rgylists.org<br>> >>> <br>> >>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>> >>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/<br>> >>> <br>> >> <br>> >> <br>> >> _______________________________________________<br>> >> Stoves mailing list<br>> >> <br>> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address <br>> >> stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>> >> <br>> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page <br>> >> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioener<br>> >> gylists.org<br>> >> <br>> >> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>> >> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/<br>> >> <br>> > _______________________________________________<br>> > Stoves mailing list<br>> > <br>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address <br>> > stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>> > <br>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page <br>> > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenerg<br>> > ylists.org<br>> > <br>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/<br>> > <br>> <br>> -------------- next part --------------<br>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>> URL:<br>> <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/a<br>> ttachments/20140101/a4f4503a/attachment-0001.html><br>> <br>> ------------------------------<br>> <br>> Message: 7<br>> Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2014 10:28:13 -0700<br>> From: "Ronal W. Larson" <rongretlarson@comcast.net><br>> To: Discussion of biomass <stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>> Cc: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification<br>> <gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] [Gasification] Chip Guillotine was Re: Wood<br>> heating in the UK - whole log gasification<br>> Message-ID: <7D9A4A89-D963-4C60-B92F-C77F134BEABA@comcast.net><br>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>> <br>> <br>> Jeff, Andrew etal:<br>> <br>> 1. I vaguely recall this subject coming up 10 or more years ago, with<br>> the conclusion that a tool called a "bypass lopper" beat saws. This Amazon<br>> ad<br>> <br>> http://www.amazon.com/True-Temper-Pruning-Solutions-2342530/dp/B000EM2SSQ/re<br>> f=pd_bxgy_lg_text_y<br>> <br>> shows at least 3 companies producing tools that seem to be about $15 per<br>> inch of wood material to be sliced (1.5 up to 3 inch). Mainly designed for<br>> use in the field, but clamping on a bench should be fairly easy for many,<br>> and it might do double duty.<br>> <br>> 2. I really know nothing on this topic - just repeating earlier dialog.<br>> <br>> Ron<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> On Dec 31, 2013, at 7:23 PM, Jeff Davis <jeffdavis0124@gmail.com> wrote:<br>> <br>> > Hi AJH,<br>> > <br>> > Don't bother sending me anything. In time I'll find something and if need<br>> be I'll just flame cut a disc from flat plate. I checked out one of our<br>> local farm supply places looking for a flat disk blade but now that it's<br>> winter all of those types of things are gone or put away. Impossible to find<br>> anything outside with all this white stuff on the ground. Looks like I have<br>> enough scrap for the frame.<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > Jeff<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > On 12/31/2013 06:46 AM, ajheggie@gmail.com wrote:<br>> >> [Default] On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 06:53:17 +1300,Doug <br>> >> <Doug.Williams@orcon.net.nz> wrote:<br>> >> <br>> >>> Hi Jeff and Paul,<br>> >>> <br>> >>> It's been a few years since I assembled this concept guillotine design<br>> into a drawing, and I emphasis concept. It was to show a principle of<br>> slicing the fibres as the force of the blade was applied with as much<br>> rotation of the blade possible. How the dimensions are determined can be<br>> proven using a cardboard mock-up and leaves plenty of room for innovation<br>> relating to the features you mention.<br>> >> <br>> >> We have chippers that use disc blades:<br>> >> <br>> >> http://www.greenmech.co.uk/greenmech-disc-blades/<br>> >> <br>> >> They are definitely not supposed to rotate in use but easy enough to <br>> >> mount so they do, the diameter is much smaller than your design at <br>> >> 100mm (4") diameter but they may make a simple entry for a 1/3 <br>> >> dimension proof of concept.<br>> >> <br>> >> I have several but the postage may be prohibitive or I can ask a <br>> >> machine shop here to assemble something given a few more dimensions.<br>> >> <br>> >> AJH<br>> >> <br>> >> _______________________________________________<br>> >> Gasification mailing list<br>> >> <br>> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address <br>> >> Gasification@bioenergylists.org<br>> >> <br>> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page <br>> >> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.b<br>> >> ioenergylists.org<br>> >> <br>> >> for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site:<br>> >> http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/<br>> >> <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > _______________________________________________<br>> > Stoves mailing list<br>> > <br>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address <br>> > stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>> > <br>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page <br>> > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenerg<br>> > ylists.org<br>> > <br>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/<br>> <br>> -------------- next part --------------<br>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>> URL:<br>> <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/a<br>> ttachments/20140101/149cd3d9/attachment-0001.html><br>> <br>> ------------------------------<br>> <br>> Subject: Digest Footer<br>> <br>> _______________________________________________<br>> Stoves mailing list<br>> <br>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>> stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>> <br>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists<br>> .org<br>> <br>> <br>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>> http://www.bioenergylists.org/<br>> <br>> <br>> ------------------------------<br>> <br>> End of Stoves Digest, Vol 41, Issue 1<br>> *************************************<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> -----<br>> No virus found in this message.<br>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<br>> Version: 2013.0.3462 / Virus Database: 3658/6966 - Release Date: 01/01/14<br>> <br>> <br>> _______________________________________________<br>> Stoves mailing list<br>> <br>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>> stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>> <br>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org<br>> <br>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/<br>> <br></div> </div></body>
</html>