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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear Paul and Paal,<br>
<br>
I enjoyed your exchange on centralized model vs decentralized one
for stove production/distribution in developing context..<br>
<br>
Yes of course the most successful ICS dissemination up to now in
developing country context remain through decentralized
approach..very well adapted to the context (flexibility, low
investment needs, no fixed cost most of time, capacity for
distribution at low cost by reducing distance between producer to
user, ..)<br>
But one main drawback remains the quality control..very
complicated to set up and maintain, in Cambodia it was not a small
beer front of the very decentralised scheme of NLS production, we
succeed less or more, but with huge efforts <br>
<br>
Now, the probs I can see in France I'm working for low income
population by introducing a low cost and efficient heating
solution with biomass mass heating stoves (advanced combustion
technology at very low cost), it can occur in the future with the
efforts to develop drastic norms on cooking stoves in developing
countries. A normative centralized scheme is after a while
producing strange rules <b>to protect himself</b>!!<br>
It's very costly when you arrive with an innovative technology in
such protected supply chain (roughly that will cost me 100 000 US$
to pass all the test procedure to get labels..and get full access
to the market), the decentralized scheme I propose is based on
territory approach (use of local biomass, local mason to install
low cost mass heating stove, thermal insulation of houses with
local solutions,..) and at the end we are much more competitive,
local job creators, compared to cast iron heating stoves. We
develop a social business model..we compared all the parameters,
at the end we are higher in economic (profit sharing, jobs, ..)
social (able to integrate people with low revenue not the case
with standard approach, innovative low cost biomass supply,.. ),
environment (local material, low transport needs, efficient
combustion with very low PM, ..).<br>
<br>
Just to underline, what I understood in developing countries on
decentralized approach, I'm trying to reintroduce in France with
social business approach, its a powerful way..<br>
But what it's hard to fight with a centralized and very protected
scheme!!<br>
<br>
So, be aware to not reproduce this centralized scheme in
developing countries with clean biomass stoves with exclusive
norms on biomass stoves, high subsidizing schemes. By instance, if
within a territory, people are able to produce in a clean,
efficient (cogeneration) and sustainable way charcoal (existing
technology), at an affordable cost (local policy, smart production
scheme, ..), the existing very low cost charcoal technology stove
(type of Jiko with well designed insulated combustion chamber)
totally decentralized way produced is largely sufficient to reduce
drastically the health probs of cooking in hot climate
(precautions at starting phase, refuelling, minimal
ventilation,..) for population unable to afford LPG or to cook
100% time with LPG.<br>
But, if the centralized scheme to propose fuelwood clean stoves is
yet well implemented, certainly subsidized by carbon finance or
other funding mechanism (specific bank, ..) and protected (norms,
kind of federation, specific law,..), maybe the first option of
local decentralized electricity production with clean charcoal
stoves cannot emerge..representing a much more sustainable option
indeed..<br>
<br>
So to avoid unending debates on centralized and decentralized
schemes, as the work done with norms on stoves, a group could work
on developing a supply chain multi criteria matrix in view to
score the proposed supply chains to define economical, social,
environmental performances of the approach.. and within same
territory be aware to support the best scoring one!<br>
<br>
It seems basic things but always astonished how project managers,
developers are following only one vision avoiding to get the
global vision, impact of what he/she is doing..<br>
<br>
certainly I'm too naive..<br>
<br>
All the best for the coming year<br>
<br>
JF Rozis<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Jean-François Rozis
Tél :04 67 64 38 16
</pre>
Le 01/01/2014 20:00, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves-request@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves-request@lists.bioenergylists.org</a> a
écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:mailman.5.1388602801.19409.stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org@lists.bioenergylists.org"
type="cite">
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: ETHOS Discussion about decentalized stove efforts
(Paul Anderson)
2. Re: ETHOS / and in defence of Paal,: Glocally Networked
Localised Initiaves ? "centralisation" or for that matter
"decentralisation" (Richard Stanley)
3. Re: [Gasification] Chip Guillotine was Re: Wood heating in
the UK - whole log gasification (Jeff Davis)
4. Re: ETHOS Discussion about decentalized stove efforts
(Ben Blevins)
5. Re: ETHOS Discussion about decentalized stove efforts
(Jonathan P Gill)
6. Re: ETHOS Discussion about decentalized stove efforts
(Ronal W. Larson)
7. Re: [Gasification] Chip Guillotine was Re: Wood heating in
the UK - whole log gasification (Ronal W. Larson)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 17:34:45 -0600
From: Paul Anderson <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu"><psanders@ilstu.edu></a>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"><stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org></a>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] ETHOS Discussion about decentalized stove
efforts
Message-ID: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:52C35495.1050609@ilstu.edu"><52C35495.1050609@ilstu.edu></a>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Dear Paal, and all,
As much as I can agree with Paal's statements, but I think the cards are
stacked against the success of decentralized efforts.
The issue that Paal raises about the need to have decentralized
production of stoves (and fuels) is a touchy topic because the "model"
of the affluent world is for centralized industrial production. That
centralized model is certainly a cornerstone of the GACC and WB and
many who feel that the model of the affluent world will work to resolve
major issues in the developing world. And they control access to most of
the funding. And they present very convincing arguments. (If they
could not, they would not be in control of the situation.)
It would be good to have some examples of decentralized efforts having
major impacts. Maybe the spread of the Kenyan ceramic jiko (KCJ) is
one example.
I will be at ETHOS and willing for such discussions if others step
forward wanting to discuss this informally as an ad hoc sub-group.
Paul
Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a>
On 12/31/2013 10:15 AM, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:paaw@online.no">paaw@online.no</a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On Tue, 31 Dec 2013 08:12:54 -0700,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Due to health and age it will not be possible for me to participate, but after 30 years working with task and followed the discussion at Stove list I have come to this conclusion.
There has to be a discussion at ETHOS about centralized or decentralized activities regarding fuel and stove production with a view on the enormous unemployment in developing countries. Taken into consideration the high demands of clean combustion, pellets will be the future biomass fuel for simple clean burning such as TLUD ND and FD. Energy forestry and agriculture energy production together collection of waste biomass of different types will give a lot of new needed jobs.
? Registration of local waste combustible biomass.
? Use of local resources
? Biochar production by cooking.
That will be the best way for GACC Stove program to support the low income groups all around the worl
Best regards Paal Wendelbo <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:paaw@online.no">paaw@online.no</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 16:27:04 -0800
From: Richard Stanley <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rstanley@legacyfound.org"><rstanley@legacyfound.org></a>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"><stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org></a>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] ETHOS / and in defence of Paal,: Glocally
Networked Localised Initiaves ? "centralisation" or for that matter
"decentralisation"
Message-ID: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:C794ED54-C5DE-4350-A2CE-8B19972F1D2F@legacyfound.org"><C794ED54-C5DE-4350-A2CE-8B19972F1D2F@legacyfound.org></a>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Paul,
Hoping this gets through the filters of this group, you nicely describe the very philosophical differences I have with the centralize and mass produce movement at least for these technologies; We have had major success self sustaining success at that but by the very nature of it the centralized worlds access to it, such access tends to consume it to little beneficial end for the local producer/trainer.
The whole idea of development surely cannot be to simply replicate our western industrialized model of development on the global community. It's a model that you in your own profession well know has serious distortions to the global economy given for example, our resource consumption patterns as against our proportion of the world's population, and the mere carbon footprint we make in trying to extoll the virtues of centralized mass production and distribution ---where such technologies as these can be managed at the local level.
It's certainly agreed that pure localized one-off initiatives are labor intensive to say the least and so much is lost in the process, as the learning is not generally transferred by the trainees-trained as trainers, to emerging groups in their own area.
To me, its is not about "centralization" but about localization of initiative and responsibility and localization of reward--globally. Its about functioning as a mechanic of the process, to encourage this to happen in such a way as to assure local responsibility and initiative. The process is monetised to assure self sustained participation . Everyone works at risk and reward and responsibility locally but the participants also learn to share their findings globally
And for 2014 as initially suggested by many colleagues, we are bent on assembling an anthology on the subject by those who have been directly involved in it.
Knowing we all share the same end goals, all the best to you and the other many good like minds for the new year.
Richard Stanley
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.legacyfound.org">www.legacyfound.org</a>
=============
On Dec 31, 2013, at 3:34 PM, Paul Anderson wrote:
Dear ', and all,
As much as I can agree with Paal's statements, but I think the cards are stacked against the success of decentralized efforts.
The issue that Paal raises about the need to have decentralized production of stoves (and fuels) is a touchy topic because the "model" of the affluent world is for centralized industrial production. That centralized model is certainly a cornerstone of the GACC and WB and many who feel that the model of the affluent world will work to resolve major issues in the developing world. And they control access to most of the funding. And they present very convincing arguments. (If they could not, they would not be in control of the situation.)
It would be good to have some examples of decentralized efforts having major impacts. Maybe the spread of the Kenyan ceramic jiko (KCJ) is one example.
I will be at ETHOS and willing for such discussions if others step forward wanting to discuss this informally as an ad hoc sub-group.
Paul
Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a>
On 12/31/2013 10:15 AM, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:paaw@online.no">paaw@online.no</a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On Tue, 31 Dec 2013 08:12:54 -0700,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Due to health and age it will not be possible for me to participate, but after 30 years working with task and followed the discussion at Stove list I have come to this conclusion.
There has to be a discussion at ETHOS about centralized or decentralized activities regarding fuel and stove production with a view on the enormous unemployment in developing countries. Taken into consideration the high demands of clean combustion, pellets will be the future biomass fuel for simple clean burning such as TLUD ND and FD. Energy forestry and agriculture energy production together collection of waste biomass of different types will give a lot of new needed jobs.
? Registration of local waste combustible biomass.
? Use of local resources
? Biochar production by cooking.
That will be the best way for GACC Stove program to support the low income groups all around the worl
Best regards Paal Wendelbo <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:paaw@online.no">paaw@online.no</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
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------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 21:23:00 -0500
From: Jeff Davis <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jeffdavis0124@gmail.com"><jeffdavis0124@gmail.com></a>
To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org"><gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org></a>, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ajheggie@gmail.com">ajheggie@gmail.com</a>,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] [Gasification] Chip Guillotine was Re: Wood
heating in the UK - whole log gasification
Message-ID: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:52C37C04.3080901@gmail.com"><52C37C04.3080901@gmail.com></a>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Hi AJH,
Don't bother sending me anything. In time I'll find something and if
need be I'll just flame cut a disc from flat plate. I checked out one of
our local farm supply places looking for a flat disk blade but now that
it's winter all of those types of things are gone or put away.
Impossible to find anything outside with all this white stuff on the
ground. Looks like I have enough scrap for the frame.
Jeff
On 12/31/2013 06:46 AM, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ajheggie@gmail.com">ajheggie@gmail.com</a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">[Default] On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 06:53:17 +1300,Doug
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Doug.Williams@orcon.net.nz"><Doug.Williams@orcon.net.nz></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Hi Jeff and Paul,
It's been a few years since I assembled this concept guillotine design into a drawing, and I emphasis concept. It was to show a principle of slicing the fibres as the force of the blade was applied with as much rotation of the blade possible. How the dimensions are determined can be proven using a cardboard mock-up and leaves plenty of room for innovation relating to the features you mention.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
We have chippers that use disc blades:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.greenmech.co.uk/greenmech-disc-blades/">http://www.greenmech.co.uk/greenmech-disc-blades/</a>
They are definitely not supposed to rotate in use but easy enough to
mount so they do, the diameter is much smaller than your design at
100mm (4") diameter but they may make a simple entry for a 1/3
dimension proof of concept.
I have several but the postage may be prohibitive or I can ask a
machine shop here to assemble something given a few more dimensions.
AJH
_______________________________________________
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 21:51:24 -0500
From: Ben Blevins <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:hspben@yahoo.com"><hspben@yahoo.com></a>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"><stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org></a>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] ETHOS Discussion about decentalized stove
efforts
Message-ID: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:3D34C06D-3EDE-4EFC-8DCC-9C47251F97B9@yahoo.com"><3D34C06D-3EDE-4EFC-8DCC-9C47251F97B9@yahoo.com></a>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Deloitte contractors suggested decentralized for various reasons, there consulting was rejected because the finding did not reinforce the message of mass production and distribution by development industry players.
B
On Dec 31, 2013, at 6:34 PM, Paul Anderson <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu"><psanders@ilstu.edu></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Dear Paal, and all,
As much as I can agree with Paal's statements, but I think the cards are stacked against the success of decentralized efforts.
The issue that Paal raises about the need to have decentralized production of stoves (and fuels) is a touchy topic because the "model" of the affluent world is for centralized industrial production. That centralized model is certainly a cornerstone of the GACC and WB and many who feel that the model of the affluent world will work to resolve major issues in the developing world. And they control access to most of the funding. And they present very convincing arguments. (If they could not, they would not be in control of the situation.)
It would be good to have some examples of decentralized efforts having major impacts. Maybe the spread of the Kenyan ceramic jiko (KCJ) is one example.
I will be at ETHOS and willing for such discussions if others step forward wanting to discuss this informally as an ad hoc sub-group.
Paul
Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a>
On 12/31/2013 10:15 AM, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:paaw@online.no">paaw@online.no</a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On Tue, 31 Dec 2013 08:12:54 -0700,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Due to health and age it will not be possible for me to participate, but after 30 years working with task and followed the discussion at Stove list I have come to this conclusion.
There has to be a discussion at ETHOS about centralized or decentralized activities regarding fuel and stove production with a view on the enormous unemployment in developing countries. Taken into consideration the high demands of clean combustion, pellets will be the future biomass fuel for simple clean burning such as TLUD ND and FD. Energy forestry and agriculture energy production together collection of waste biomass of different types will give a lot of new needed jobs.
? Registration of local waste combustible biomass.
? Use of local resources
? Biochar production by cooking.
That will be the best way for GACC Stove program to support the low income groups all around the worl
Best regards Paal Wendelbo <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:paaw@online.no">paaw@online.no</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2014 11:07:36 -0500
From: Jonathan P Gill <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jg45@icloud.com"><jg45@icloud.com></a>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"><stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org></a>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] ETHOS Discussion about decentalized stove
efforts
Message-ID: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:A76BEA01-723D-4E93-9B4D-9763644352B0@icloud.com"><A76BEA01-723D-4E93-9B4D-9763644352B0@icloud.com></a>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
I am with those who favor decentralization. The internet model is the proof of the pudding. The internet could never have been built by the centralized model!
A key aspect of the decentralized model is that it is the most effective way to leverage the human and financial capital resources at the edges. These are far vaster in aggregate than anything the centralized model can arrange. The simple fact is that the problems being addressed require a level of resources that ONLY the decentralized internet model can deliver. The under resourced central model can only fail, as any badly under capitalized business knows.
Best Wishes for a Distributed & Decentralized 2014.
Jock
Jock Gill
P. O. Box 3
Peacham, VT 05862
google.com/+JockGill
Extract CO2 from the atmosphere!
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On Dec 31, 2013, at 9:51 PM, Ben Blevins <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:hspben@yahoo.com"><hspben@yahoo.com></a> wrote:
Deloitte contractors suggested decentralized for various reasons, there consulting was rejected because the finding did not reinforce the message of mass production and distribution by development industry players.
B
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On Dec 31, 2013, at 6:34 PM, Paul Anderson <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu"><psanders@ilstu.edu></a> wrote:
Dear Paal, and all,
As much as I can agree with Paal's statements, but I think the cards are stacked against the success of decentralized efforts.
The issue that Paal raises about the need to have decentralized production of stoves (and fuels) is a touchy topic because the "model" of the affluent world is for centralized industrial production. That centralized model is certainly a cornerstone of the GACC and WB and many who feel that the model of the affluent world will work to resolve major issues in the developing world. And they control access to most of the funding. And they present very convincing arguments. (If they could not, they would not be in control of the situation.)
It would be good to have some examples of decentralized efforts having major impacts. Maybe the spread of the Kenyan ceramic jiko (KCJ) is one example.
I will be at ETHOS and willing for such discussions if others step forward wanting to discuss this informally as an ad hoc sub-group.
Paul
Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a>
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On 12/31/2013 10:15 AM, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:paaw@online.no">paaw@online.no</a> wrote:
On Tue, 31 Dec 2013 08:12:54 -0700,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Due to health and age it will not be possible for me to participate, but after 30 years working with task and followed the discussion at Stove list I have come to this conclusion.
There has to be a discussion at ETHOS about centralized or decentralized activities regarding fuel and stove production with a view on the enormous unemployment in developing countries. Taken into consideration the high demands of clean combustion, pellets will be the future biomass fuel for simple clean burning such as TLUD ND and FD. Energy forestry and agriculture energy production together collection of waste biomass of different types will give a lot of new needed jobs.
? Registration of local waste combustible biomass.
? Use of local resources
? Biochar production by cooking.
That will be the best way for GACC Stove program to support the low income groups all around the worl
Best regards Paal Wendelbo <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:paaw@online.no">paaw@online.no</a>
</pre>
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Message: 6
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2014 10:10:08 -0700
From: "Ronal W. Larson" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"><rongretlarson@comcast.net></a>
To: Discussion of biomass <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"><stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org></a>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] ETHOS Discussion about decentalized stove
efforts
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Jock, Ben, List, etal
1. I suggest we are apt to see a mixed mode for stoves: centralized manufacture of key parts and decentralized assembly. This is the World Stove model (based on least cost principles - import duties, quality control, attractive design, added services, etc). I worked twice for a small local PV company in Zimbabwe, and this was their key - provided much better service for customers than any of their competitors, for small parts - not the panels.
2. Ben: Deloitte does good work. I found this one: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://dupress.com/articles/the-transformation-of-manufacturing/?id=us:em:na:dup633:read:dup:121713&elq=9ac6469b7bc34fb59a2f895ff968dc1e&elqCampaignId=1164">http://dupress.com/articles/the-transformation-of-manufacturing/?id=us:em:na:dup633:read:dup:121713&elq=9ac6469b7bc34fb59a2f895ff968dc1e&elqCampaignId=1164</a>
did you have a different cite?
Ron
On Jan 1, 2014, at 9:07 AM, Jonathan P Gill <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jg45@icloud.com"><jg45@icloud.com></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I am with those who favor decentralization. The internet model is the proof of the pudding. The internet could never have been built by the centralized model!
A key aspect of the decentralized model is that it is the most effective way to leverage the human and financial capital resources at the edges. These are far vaster in aggregate than anything the centralized model can arrange. The simple fact is that the problems being addressed require a level of resources that ONLY the decentralized internet model can deliver. The under resourced central model can only fail, as any badly under capitalized business knows.
Best Wishes for a Distributed & Decentralized 2014.
Jock
Jock Gill
P. O. Box 3
Peacham, VT 05862
google.com/+JockGill
Extract CO2 from the atmosphere!
On Dec 31, 2013, at 9:51 PM, Ben Blevins <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:hspben@yahoo.com"><hspben@yahoo.com></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Deloitte contractors suggested decentralized for various reasons, there consulting was rejected because the finding did not reinforce the message of mass production and distribution by development industry players.
B
On Dec 31, 2013, at 6:34 PM, Paul Anderson <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu"><psanders@ilstu.edu></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Dear Paal, and all,
As much as I can agree with Paal's statements, but I think the cards are stacked against the success of decentralized efforts.
The issue that Paal raises about the need to have decentralized production of stoves (and fuels) is a touchy topic because the "model" of the affluent world is for centralized industrial production. That centralized model is certainly a cornerstone of the GACC and WB and many who feel that the model of the affluent world will work to resolve major issues in the developing world. And they control access to most of the funding. And they present very convincing arguments. (If they could not, they would not be in control of the situation.)
It would be good to have some examples of decentralized efforts having major impacts. Maybe the spread of the Kenyan ceramic jiko (KCJ) is one example.
I will be at ETHOS and willing for such discussions if others step forward wanting to discuss this informally as an ad hoc sub-group.
Paul
Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a>
On 12/31/2013 10:15 AM, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:paaw@online.no">paaw@online.no</a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On Tue, 31 Dec 2013 08:12:54 -0700,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Due to health and age it will not be possible for me to participate, but after 30 years working with task and followed the discussion at Stove list I have come to this conclusion.
There has to be a discussion at ETHOS about centralized or decentralized activities regarding fuel and stove production with a view on the enormous unemployment in developing countries. Taken into consideration the high demands of clean combustion, pellets will be the future biomass fuel for simple clean burning such as TLUD ND and FD. Energy forestry and agriculture energy production together collection of waste biomass of different types will give a lot of new needed jobs.
? Registration of local waste combustible biomass.
? Use of local resources
? Biochar production by cooking.
That will be the best way for GACC Stove program to support the low income groups all around the worl
Best regards Paal Wendelbo <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:paaw@online.no">paaw@online.no</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
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</pre>
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Message: 7
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2014 10:28:13 -0700
From: "Ronal W. Larson" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"><rongretlarson@comcast.net></a>
To: Discussion of biomass <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"><stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org></a>
Cc: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org"><gasification@lists.bioenergylists.org></a>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] [Gasification] Chip Guillotine was Re: Wood
heating in the UK - whole log gasification
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Jeff, Andrew etal:
1. I vaguely recall this subject coming up 10 or more years ago, with the conclusion that a tool called a "bypass lopper" beat saws. This Amazon ad
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.amazon.com/True-Temper-Pruning-Solutions-2342530/dp/B000EM2SSQ/ref=pd_bxgy_lg_text_y">http://www.amazon.com/True-Temper-Pruning-Solutions-2342530/dp/B000EM2SSQ/ref=pd_bxgy_lg_text_y</a>
shows at least 3 companies producing tools that seem to be about $15 per inch of wood material to be sliced (1.5 up to 3 inch). Mainly designed for use in the field, but clamping on a bench should be fairly easy for many, and it might do double duty.
2. I really know nothing on this topic - just repeating earlier dialog.
Ron
On Dec 31, 2013, at 7:23 PM, Jeff Davis <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jeffdavis0124@gmail.com"><jeffdavis0124@gmail.com></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Hi AJH,
Don't bother sending me anything. In time I'll find something and if need be I'll just flame cut a disc from flat plate. I checked out one of our local farm supply places looking for a flat disk blade but now that it's winter all of those types of things are gone or put away. Impossible to find anything outside with all this white stuff on the ground. Looks like I have enough scrap for the frame.
Jeff
On 12/31/2013 06:46 AM, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ajheggie@gmail.com">ajheggie@gmail.com</a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">[Default] On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 06:53:17 +1300,Doug
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Doug.Williams@orcon.net.nz"><Doug.Williams@orcon.net.nz></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Hi Jeff and Paul,
It's been a few years since I assembled this concept guillotine design into a drawing, and I emphasis concept. It was to show a principle of slicing the fibres as the force of the blade was applied with as much rotation of the blade possible. How the dimensions are determined can be proven using a cardboard mock-up and leaves plenty of room for innovation relating to the features you mention.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
We have chippers that use disc blades:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.greenmech.co.uk/greenmech-disc-blades/">http://www.greenmech.co.uk/greenmech-disc-blades/</a>
They are definitely not supposed to rotate in use but easy enough to
mount so they do, the diameter is much smaller than your design at
100mm (4") diameter but they may make a simple entry for a 1/3
dimension proof of concept.
I have several but the postage may be prohibitive or I can ask a
machine shop here to assemble something given a few more dimensions.
AJH
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