<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div>Crispin, I take the liberty of responding to the whole list since 1) you didn’t ask me not to, 2) you wished you had on the last similar message to me, 3) because the stove list likely mostly wants to hear, and 4) because we both think the topics are important.</div><div> </div><div>I have added your and my previous two messages for clarity.</div><div><br></div><div>See inserts.</div><br><div><div>On Jan 21, 2014, at 11:00 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-CA" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Dear Ron<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;"><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><i> “…. </i><i><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">the major pathologies have been excised </span></i><i><span style="font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">…”</span></i><o:p></o:p></div></blockquote><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> 2. We have discoursed on your not measuring char production in the proposed test procedures for Indonesia. Is char-production still a “pathology” that you have “excised", or do you now measure char production when testing stoves designed to intentionally make char? <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I am not sure what you think of as a pathology. You comment seems intended to create one. What do you think is a pathology in current tests on the matter of char creation?</span></div></div></div></div></blockquote> <b>[RWL: I don’t see any particular pathology around. You (not me) introduced the term “ pathology” and my response (repeated below and a little above) was to try to learn your meaning of the word. I am happy with the way Jim Jetter is reporting char production. I do not get an answer to my question on whether Jim’s current reporting is a “pathology” from your response - maybe below.</b><br><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-CA" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">A customer is free to ask for anything they want to pay for in a stove. If they want one that creates char – no problem; similarly they may want to burn their collected fuel cleanly and completely. Stove programmes are also free to promote what they want. </span></div></div></div></div></blockquote> <b>[RWL: No pathology here. We agree. It is not clear whether your stove testing will tell the person wanting to create char anything of value.</b><br><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-CA" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The test method employed (SeTAR SOP 30.03 also the “Indonesian CSI-WBT”) reports fuel consumption, defined as the new fuel required to complete a burn cycle. The usability of the fuel remaining in the same stove (not just the char which is hard to define precisely) is considered in that calculation.</span></div></div></div></div></blockquote> <b>[RWL: I sense a “pathology” here. No char reporting in these two standard tests, I gather..</b><br><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-CA" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">A ‘pathology’ would be to calculate the energy production (actual or theoretical) and report that as the fuel consumption. </span></div></div></div></div></blockquote> <b>[RWL: We’ll have to agree to disagree. I don’t know any other way to talk about stove inefficiencies (not efficiencies). Some users of stoves think the tradeoff with char in the picture in energy terms is worthwhile.</b><br><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-CA" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">If you want to know the char produced, ask and define what you mean by ‘char’. It will be reported. If you want to know the energy value in that char, ask and it will be tested and reported. </span></div></div></div></div></blockquote> <b>[RWL: Yup - that sounds pathological. Not clear to me why a stove manufacturer has to ask for this, when it is (probably) labeled as a char-making stove, and may not even know his/her stove is being tested.</b><br><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-CA" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> 3. My question includes all possible “major pathologies”, not just char-production (my meme). Just hoping for a list we should be considering at ETHOS.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I didn’t rate pathologies as minor and major. A pathology common to a long list of stove tests is to report the mass of water boiled as being that which was put into the pot during heating but only what remains in the pot after boiling. That is just plain strange. Errors like that have been removed.</span></div></div></div></div></blockquote> <b>[RWL: I was just repeating your phrase (see below) “major pathologies”. Your description in sentence #2 doesn’t make sense (a missing word?). In any case, I see Jim Jetter’s always giving initial and final water quantities. It is not clear what modification you have made or want made. I consider the issue of measuring and reporting char production for all tests as a “major” disagreement (not a pathology). This second one on water loss seems minor until I hear more.</b><br><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-CA" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">“Correcting” the mass of water boiled by factoring in the difference between a fixed ‘local boiling point’ and the temperature the water actually reached is another. All the calculations are based on first principles and all terms are defined.</span></div></div></div></div></blockquote> <b>[RWL: I guess these first principles and defined terms are all in the two test procedures you identified above. Can you give exact URLs and pertinent sections to look at? </b></div><div><b> I conclude from your response that measuring char production you consider to be a major pathology and such measurement now has been excised in two national standards. Sorry about both parts of that sentence. Ron</b><br><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-CA" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div></div><div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;"><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I would be pleased to have a presentation of it at ETHOS but that is very unlikely – no time and no ticket.</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><o:p></o:p></span></div></blockquote></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Regards<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Crispin</span></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div>On Jan 21, 2014, at 10:42 AM, Ronal W. Larson <<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div>Crispin and list</div><div><br></div><div> 1. Since we are a few days away from the ETHOS meeting, and there will be some funders there, I hope you can elaborate on this phrase from below:</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type="cite"><i> “…. <span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">the major pathologies have been excised</span><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri, sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span><span style="font-size: 15px;">…</span></font></i><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri, sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 15px;"><i>”</i></span></font></blockquote> </div><div> 2. We have discoursed on your not measuring char production in the proposed test procedures for Indonesia. Is char-production still a “pathology” that you have “excised", or do you now measure char production when testing stoves designed to intentionally make char? </div><div><br></div><div> 3. My question includes all possible “major pathologies”, not just char-production (my meme). Just hoping for a list we should be considering at ETHOS.</div><div><br></div><div>Ron</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><br><div><div>On Jan 21, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-CA" link="#0563C1" vlink="#954F72"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Dear Samer<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">It is my hope that Cecil Cook will wander through here one day because we spent a great deal of time looking into these problems<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">></span></b>In particular I will be keen to explore more deeply the ramifications for testing, actual fuel use, and the memes that relate these to problems of deforestation and health.<span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">By that I mean the problems related to the use of information generated by the specialists who do not individually have much administrative control over project design and management (in a lot of cases – there are exceptions).<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I recall some years ago at ETHOS expressing a view that we really needed more input from professional marketing people – input to the stove designers, backyard inventors and hardly-ever-do-wells who are trying to make the world a better place with what little they have.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The value of this input is to separate developers of technology from their egos. No kidding. It is very disciplining to have in-your-face feedback about one’s preconceptions for a product. Marketing people have enough power in the relationship to make the message stick. If the speaker is an individual objecting to a stove product, they (although the customer) are often dismissed as not realising what a wonderful device I have created for you if you would just learn to use it properly it will do wonderful things and make your life better and your whole family will celebrate.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The next cold shower that brings benefit is professional traders who are the middlemen in the value chain. Sometimes we can stimulate their enthusiasm with storied stoves with creative claims attached, piggy-backing on their existing distribution systems and sneak a ‘better product’ into their display of wares. Let’s say you can always do that once, but it had better work for them. They are pretty callous about viability and their depth of view is often not what is needed to launch a transformative stove product. They can make a living selling other things too so the product has to be viable, income-wise.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Another group that has had sterling success in attaching themselves to the wonderful world of stoves (Disney Kitchen?) is the health community with their agenda(s). The clear link between cooking and health is easily shown in any community and the health sector has been a major proponent of improved, especially lower-smoke stoves.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">So these groups all have the capability to generate messages, and to receive and store them. They can create, store, modify, refute and extrapolate memes arising from ‘things they heard’ about stoves.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The significant parallel I see in these collections of memes about what stoves do, can do, should do and <i>really</i> do and the significant paper you and Saeed have produced is that the complex world of stoves needs this sort of analysis in order to avoid falling into a variety of traps. These traps are the (often quite separate) agendas of a huge number of power centres always on the lookout for the Next Big Thing they can manage, prosper from, ride, lead, and ultimately benefit the generality of humankind through their good efforts.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I have drawn attention to external forces and interests, but there is, were one doing the same type of analysis as you have done, an internal group of forces or interests that produce their own memes and circulate and evolve them entirely within the stove community. One easy example is that ‘gasifiers are inherently cleaner burning than other combustors’. In fact all fires are gas fires. Teasing out the intended meaning from these words gets one into a repetitive semantic discussion that doesn’t really mean much except to the participants. The meme continues, sailing along on the current of misunderstanding that there might be ‘other fires’ that do not burn gases and that those ‘other fires’ are inherently ‘dirtier’ that gasifier fires. Consider the remarkable examples (with hundreds of thousands of citations) of fuels themselves being given the attributes of ‘clean’ and ‘dirty’!<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">These curiosities are fun and harmless unless they start to impact policy and that policy impact is driven by a power centre that lies outside the influence of the stove making community that create the meme in the first place. That power centre is now ‘misinformed’ and begins allocating the distribution of resources based on their understanding.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The result, in short, is that the projects which create, disseminate and promote improved stoves (however defined) and fuels (ditto) can be quite severely skewed towards goals that may actually be ephemeral. An alternative is that the goals are real, but low priority in the community of interest.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">So, what to do about it. That is where Cecil Cook and Tig Tuntivate, Veronica Mendizabal, Helen Carlsson, Simon Bell, Iwan Boskoro, Prianti Utami, Christina Aristanti, Yabei Zhang plus too many others to mention come in. Taking a comprehensive view of what happens in the community (behaviour and resources), the market as it really exists, finance models that avoid as many pitfalls as possible, producers and distributors who are or want to be in the formal sector a new approach to the construction of a stove programme has been taken and is being piloted in Indonesia.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">This approach includes significant changes in the way resources are allocated to those who ‘cause better stoves to be purchased’ (which is the ultimate goal of a viable stove industry). It includes upgrading the level of input to the point of power sharing from social scientists (social anthropologists and sociologists, social workers etc). It includes developing new and affordable test methods for making comparative evaluations that allow meaningfully accurate lab tests to realistically predict performance when the stoves are used in a target community. It includes careful programme design so that the system is scalable to Really Big if the spend is justifiable.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">If you, Samer, were to study this initiative from the outside I think you would find the sort of critique you present in the paper has been done on multiple levels by this team, and as far as we were able in the time allocated, the major pathologies have been excised and hopeful innovations substituted. My hope is that they are well-considered!<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I will provide more details related to the technical side of the project when it is appropriate.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Regards<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Crispin freezing (again) in Waterloo<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 11.5pt;">Technologizing Humanitarian Space: Darfur Advocacy and the Rape-Stove Panacea </span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Samer Abdelnour and Akbar M. Saeed<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><a href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259104849_Technologizing_Humanitarian_Space_Darfur_Advocacy_and_the_Rape-Stove_Panacea/file/5046352d950ca6cfdf.pdf?ev=pub_int_doc_dl&origin=publication_detail&inViewer=true" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114);">https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259104849_Technologizing_Humanitarian_Space_Darfur_Advocacy_and_the_Rape-Stove_Panacea/file/5046352d950ca6cfdf.pdf?ev=pub_int_doc_dl&origin=publication_detail&inViewer=true</a><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</div></blockquote></div><br></div></blockquote></div></body></html>