<div dir="ltr">Hi Paul, <div><br></div><div>This is indeed a very interesting issue you have brought up. Here are some of my personal anecdotes in regards to this in Kenya.</div><div><br></div><div>Foremost, we have currently been having a bit of a run around with the National stove testing facility, KIRDI, in regards to testing our charcoal ovens. As ovens are not really made for boiling water but the tests for biomass stoves are typically based on boiling water we seem to have reached an impasse on which way to go. Im thinking we just roast chickens and bake bread, but I imagine that would just be more delicious then scientific. Any suggestions on alternative oven tests would be much appreciated. </div>
<div><br></div><div>Then there also is the issue of how in the world do we begin to afford test the other products (that are already being copied by jua kali) like the charcoal patio space heaters (4 models) and the open nyama choma BBQs and commercial multi KCJ's (comes in 2,3-4,5 burner arrangements) and the charcoal mini-tandoor ovens (2 sizes) and the double KCJ burner with the warmer (2 sizes) and the animal like charcoal BBQs (6 types so far) and then each with variations of size and then with/without the optional attachments. This is considering that the charge appx. 60,000ksh (700USD) per test and they take months and will probably need to be individually designed etc. </div>
<div><br></div><div>We try our best with our own in house testing (largely based on things iv learned from my dad and the bioenergysite info) and we work hard with our customers who after all, more or less are the ones who fund, design, test and market our new products.</div>
<div><br></div><div>And one last small thing is the testing of the KCJ... how is that inevitably the particular KCJ tested always somehow seems to be the one that looks like it was made by a drunk fundi using old rusty sheet metal and then run over by a herd of cows and was lit using wet charcoal? If anyone on this listserve would like to test a real original Kenya Ceramic Jiko, made to the exact original specs, please contact us to get one on loan, completely for free if you pay shipping. (and testing.) </div>
<div><br></div><div><br></div><div>All the best, and if anyone has any thoughts on how to test biomass convection ovens, please let me know. </div><div><br>Teddy </div><div><br></div><div><br></div>
<div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div>
<div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><b>Cookswell Jikos</b><br><a href="http://www.cookswell.co.ke" target="_blank">www.cookswell.co.ke</a></div><div><a href="http://www.facebook.com/CookswellJikos" target="_blank">www.facebook.com/CookswellJikos</a></div>
<div><a href="http://www.kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com" target="_blank">www.kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com</a></div><div>Mobile: +254 700 380 009 <br></div><div>Mobile: +254 700 905 913</div><div>P.O. Box 1433, Nairobi 00606, Kenya</div>
<div><img src="https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-mFnK50B4oS8/UUrgJle8z9I/AAAAAAAAB_o/OUjLd7wrKPg/s133/Cookswell+Logo.PNG" width="71" height="96"><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><br><br></div></div></div>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 6:51 AM, Paul Anderson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div>Dear all,<br>
<br>
First, I will thank Michael for his reply.<br>
<br>
Second, I will exclaim my shock that NOBODY ELSE made any reply.
What does that tell us?<br>
<br>
"Silence means consent." That would mean that you all agree with
me, and with Crispin. Sir Thomas Moore used that argument, and
then they chopped off his head. <br>
<br>
Or maybe you are waiting until ETHOS to bring up the issues?<br>
<br>
Or maybe you are in such profound disagreement that you are in
shock that someone would suggest that the standard WBT might not
be sufficient?<br>
<br>
Or maybe you just want this topic to disappear?<br>
<br>
Anyway, ETHOS is virtually upon us; many start their travel within
a day from now. Let's hope that some discussion, whether in
agreement or disagreement, can be heard there AND on the Listserv.
<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<pre cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
On 1/20/2014 12:10 AM, <a href="mailto:d.michael.shafer@gmail.com" target="_blank">d.michael.shafer@gmail.com</a> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Amen.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This is a wonderful, specific statement of a general
problem that has plagued the stove "movement" for a long time.
If you haven't sat next to the woman in her own kitchen and
cooked with her, you don't know diddly about cook stoves and
anything you do in the arena might as well be shooting in the
wood smoke.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>M<br>
<img src="https://t.yesware.com/t/19b76f9ee5591491d8365a0d144deb53346a28b6/c88c857b979ec4065ac8ad684c74ac62/spacer.gif" style="border:0;width:0px;min-height:0px" height="0" width="0"><img src="http://t.yesware.com/t/19b76f9ee5591491d8365a0d144deb53346a28b6/c88c857b979ec4065ac8ad684c74ac62/spacer.gif" style="border:0;width:0px;min-height:0px" height="0" width="0"><br>
<br>
<div>
<div style="font-size:13px;font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
<div style="margin:0 0 8px 0">
<p style="margin:0"><span style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12px;color:#808080;outline:#808080 none 0px;border:0px none #808080"> <strong style="font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;color:#808080;outline:#808080 none 0px;border:0px none #808080">Michael Shafer</strong>
Director , Warm Heart</span><br style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12px">
<span style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12px;color:#808080;outline:#808080 none 0px;border:0px none #808080"> <span style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12px;color:#808080;outline:#808080 none 0px;border:0px none #808080"> Tel: +
1-732-745-9295 </span> <span style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12px;color:#808080;outline:#808080 none 0px;border:0px none #808080"> <span style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12px;color:#00a1e6;outline:#00a1e6 none 0px;border:0px none #00a1e6"> | </span>
Mobile: + 66(85)-199-2958 </span> </span> <br style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12px">
<span style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12px;text-decoration:underline">
<span style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12px;color:#0000ff;outline:#0000ff none 0px;border:0px none #0000ff"><a href="mailto:d.michael.shafer@gmail.com" target="_blank">d.michael.shafer@gmail.com</a></span>
</span> <span style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12px"> <span style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12px;color:#00a1e6;outline:#00a1e6 none 0px;border:0px none #00a1e6"> | </span> <span style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12px;text-decoration:underline">
<span style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12px;color:#0000ff;outline:#0000ff none 0px;border:0px none #0000ff"><a href="http://www.warmheartworldwide.org" target="_blank">www.warmheartworldwide.org</a></span>
</span> </span></p>
</div>
<img height="1" width="1"></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 8:02 PM, Paul
Anderson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div>Stovers,<br>
<br>
The snip below from Crispin raises good questions that
should be discussed, at ETHOS and on the Listserv and at
the testing centers:<br>
On 1/15/2014 3:29 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><span style="font-size:10.0pt" lang="EN-US"></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US"></span>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">There
are so many sectors of the stove market that we
should prepare appliances for and it is good to
be reminded now and then that the local use to
which a stove might be put could be very much
unlike ‘cooking’.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">In
Indonesia people routinely have 4 or 5 different
cooking devices which they use when they are
preparing ‘that food’, just like I do at home.
Each one can be called a stove, but they are
specialised, really, and do something things
really well that he others do not.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Cecil
Cook in his investigations last year into the
use of fuels and stove found people in Central
Java (where is about to be launched an improved
stove rollout) were very adept at picking
particular fuels for certain purposes, as well
as using multiple stoves during any month. Come
fuels were used only for high power and some for
keeping a fire <i>just</i> going for a long
time. </span></p>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Basically, a stove (any stove) should be tested in
relation to its intended and highly likely use. <br>
<br>
This testing should NOT be the only testing. Certainly
testing with accepted standard test procedures should be
INCLUDED so that stoves can be compared, especially if the
stove is to be for "general" cooking practices, not the
specialized ones such as those of the Indonesian cooks.
<br>
<br>
But standard testing should NOT be the only testing if a
stove has a special purpose, such as boiling water for
drinking (nobody simmers their drinking water!!!)<br>
<br>
Without BOTH types of testing, the stove APPROVERS would
only be able to judge according to the standard results.<br>
<br>
By saying "approvers" I am referring to:<br>
<br>
A. the guardians of the Tier system based on only the
complete tests<br>
<br>
and <br>
<br>
B. The actual cooks who could quickly reject an "approved
stove for general usage" when they know very well that a
NOT-APPROVED stove does their specific cooking task so
much better.<br>
<br>
A or B. Make your choice. Or perhaps the guardians of
"A" should include tests (or separate REPORTED results)
specific to some very common types of cooking, such as
boiling water, or high-heat frying, or just the simmer
part (which can be accomplished very well by a smaller
version of many of our stoves).<br>
<br>
Essentially, if these important specifics are not
provided, much of the system of stove testing with the
standard WBT will be ignored.<br>
<br>
Or worse, the standard WBT results could mean that
favoritism for some stove manufacturers (for funding and
for Tier qualification) could result is the reduced
availability (or even banning) of some excellent stoves
that serve important but specific tasks.<br>
<br>
I hope this is discussed at ETHOS, on the Listserv, and
beyond.<br>
<br>
Paul (in Tanzania, on Saturday at an Adventist
facility, so sort of like a day off in order to catch up.
But I will go to villages tomorrow, and then home in time
for ETHOS and the Aprovecho Open House.)<br>
<br>
<br>
<pre cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: <a href="tel:%2B1-309-452-7072" value="+13094527072" target="_blank">+1-309-452-7072</a>
Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
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