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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Dear Crispin,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>I, as others have mentioned, appreciate all the calculations and info you provide. Wish my job was doing this full time so I could put in the time justified to the work you put into this and give to us. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>I cut to the chaise….<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>When people’s livelihood depends on someone picking their stove for distribution over another their choice need be based on very accurate and justifiable reasons. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>At the moment we are using a comparative test to pretend the result is ‘certified’, meaning ‘absolute’ but in reality, the lab and the procedure and the number of replications, even the calibration protocols and lab training would not really allow one to claim with precision that the result was ‘certified’ correct. We have to do what we can with the equipment available, in the time we have and in a spirit of fairness. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>If the results from this process go into a list of stove and then used to pick the one to be used – I think it not good enough, in fact meaningless, with all the added variables. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The bottom line is the products have to be much better on emissions, reasonably better on fuel consumption, and bought because people want to own and use them. In other words high adoption.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>This line has three components: emissions, fuel consumption and adaption. We are just dealing with Fuel Consumption. Emissions and adaption is for a later discussion – but very connected. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> </span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>One of the very confusing things that has permeated the stove testing community is the erroneous idea that the heat value in the fuel left over has a great deal of significance. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> Only important if you go through all the work of determining it and then use it in the calculations. <o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Regarding Char:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Well, it might have all sorts of values, but it is not relevant to the amount of fuel needed to start and run the stove the next time.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>I agree. But it is important for adaption considerations. So should be mentioned with each stove and nice if we can come up with best guess for the quality of the char and what it might be used for. Not for fuel consumption discussions. </span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Thanks <o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Frank<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Frank Shields<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Control Laboratories; Inc.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>42 Hangar Way<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Watsonville, CA 95076<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>(831) 724-5422 tel<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>(831) 724-3188 fax<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>frank@biocharlab.com<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>www.controllabs.com<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Crispin Pembert-Pigott<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 24, 2014 11:13 AM<br><b>To:</b> 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Purpose of testing and value given to char left.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Dear Frank<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>You have captured this correctly:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>I think we are all in agreement with Crispin the final purpose is to save trees and to Ron it’s important to place a value on the char left over. <span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>They are two different questions and they have two different answers. Both have value.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>You suggest we determine the wood used for each burn and after several burns we have the average wet wood used. <span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Actually we have a protocol for this and it is included in the <a href="http://tungkuindonesia.org/images/downloads/CSI_Indonesia_Test_Methods_2014-1-14_v7.pdf">Test Method</a>. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>It will take many Runs (I suggest ~ten statistically?) <span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>We are using three.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>And then we go to the next house and how many more houses, all using the same stove (the variable), to come up with a statistical value. <span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>This is not actually necessary. There are ways of using focus group to make a determination that is accurate enough to make a comparative assessment. Remember something very important that changes the number of tests required (a lot):<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>We are seeking comparative fuel consumption, not absolute numbers. This can be shortened to a comparative test, not a certified result.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>At the moment we are using a comparative test to pretend the result is ‘certified’, meaning ‘absolute’ but in reality, the lab and the procedure and the number of replications, even the calibration protocols and lab training would not really allow one to claim with precision that the result was ‘certified’ correct. We have to do what we can with the equipment available, in the time we have and in a spirit of fairness. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>It is easy when we are not trying to get a 5% or 10% improvement. As with the stove replacement programme in Mongolia, we only allow into the programme stoves that are at least 90% better than the baseline product. That is a huge difference so there is no quibbling as to whether the product is 15% or 12% better. It has to be 90% to 98% better to be interesting to us. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>In the final analysis, the exact reduction a stove gives, say 21% v.s. 25% improvement, is not as important as being sure that lots of people adopt a better stove, and they are happy with it and use it most of the time. Being really sure it is 24% better and only used 30% of the time is not really what we want to see in the final analysis.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>For this reason the social science surveys that were conducted were really good, detailed examination of what is cooked, and when, by whom and so on. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Then we give all these same houses a different stove for testing. Is this your plan? <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Nope. That is not practical. The bottom line is the products have to be much better on emissions, reasonably better on fuel consumption, and bought because people want to own and use them. In other words high adoption. Turning that into numbers is always a nightmare and we do the best we can. In this case it is with a new protocol that is strongly informed by local patterns of use. That should give us more predictable results in the field. Because the social science (social impact potential) has been assessed beforehand, we can make a pretty good estimate of whether or not a stove will be acceptable. One metric is cooking power, another is controllability. A third is lighting speed. Another is cost and durability.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>A lab test using fuel Energy as a proxy reduces the variables such that a lot of tests can be done in a short time at a reasonable cost. Like was done before. The biggest variable is the left over energy after the WBT ended and this can be accurately done using a calorimeter on a dried and ground sample –as done at Aprovecho OR my past suggested E450c method. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>One of the very confusing things that has permeated the stove testing community is the erroneous idea that the heat value in the fuel left over has a great deal of significance. It has significance if you want to know the heat transfer efficiency. It does not have a lot of significance if the fuel is not useful in the next fire. For example, you might accurately determine the heat value of tiny chips of charcoal in the ash. And what would you do with het number? It would not tell you anything about how much fuel it uses because that ‘fuel’ is a ‘mechanical loss’ (meaning energy lost without burning it).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Fuel consumption is not determined by measuring the energy content of fuel left over. It is measured by determine the amount of fuel needed each time the burn cycle is completed. That is all. It is really a lot simpler than people have made out. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>As for the value to be placed on the char left over: The quality of this char ranges from toxic to plants –to- sucking up nitrogen –to- adding heavy metals –to- producing a large plant and doubling production. To place a value one needs to collect a quantity and determine its value –if any for a purpose. <span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Well, it might have all sorts of values, but it is not relevant to the amount of fuel needed to start and run the stove the next time. Because the question we have been asked is ‘How much fuel does this stove use, on average, in that community?” we should answer it to the best of our ability.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>>…</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>For marketing we may be able to state that stove such-and-such consistently puts out a char of quality to improve soils, sequester carbon or can be used for char cookers -after collecting a composite of the char from a stove and testing it. <span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>That is all interesting information, supplying answers to different questions, not the one that is most frequently asked.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Crispin<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></body></html>